With all respect I think I'm giving up for now. LOL So they are virgins? or no they are not? Man....I think J-Dubs bring confusion that is all. The 144,000 then the great multitude. They stand before the throne. Who sits on the throne? God & Christ. Where is this throne located? The great multitude is before the throne where ever that maybe. Not away from the Lamb but with the Lamb. The great multitude sees the Lamb. Not some invisible kingdom were the multitude is away from the Lamb. It's that clear! Don't have to be a rocket scientist to see that. Twist it but it says what it says.
Revelation 7:9 (New American Standard Bible)
A Multitude from the Tribulation
9After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;
Manny
9 After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. 10 And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation [we owe] to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.”
From the NWT still actually reads the same.
Manny
I don't really belong to any organized religion. A Christian is what I would call myself. Sure I've gone to certain denominational churches but I did not agree with all they believed. What makes a Christian? There are foundational truths to Christianity that do not change. Sure some things are debatable but there are truths that if changed you would no longer have Christianity. So we shall all stand before God's throne & before the Lamb.
Manny
Originally posted by robbie carrobieyawn is this the best you have got, libel against a mans character whom you have never met (does that not strike you as prejudice, it does to me)
yawn is this the best you have got, libel against a mans character whom you have never met (does that not strike you as prejudice, it does to me), sigh and i thought this was the year 2009, unfounded and desperate lies against his marital status, yawn, did you ever meet him, did you ever meet his wife? have you spent time looking at the proceedings? ...[text shortened]... won in the supreme court of the united States of America, guaranteeing freedom for all, Mr.Big!
Libel typically carries with it the ability to show the accusation(s) lack substantiation. If you wish to use the term, you may want to consider the fact that I've not said anything the man himself would--- or could--- refute... despite his well-documented experience within many court rooms of his time.
Prejudice? That would imply that I had already made up my mind about him prior to knowing any of the facts. This isn't the case; however, if you think the same to be true, by all means, show where I have offered any opinion based on anything less than his own behavior.
unfounded and desperate lies against his marital status, yawn,
Which lies might these be?
did you ever meet him, did you ever meet his wife?
Sadly, both have passed. Is that the criteria, however, prior to anyone making any type of assessment: the person in question must be alive? What do you make of Adolf Hitler using this standard?
do you know what his motives were, answer no, you have not got a clue, i would suggest that you start by educating yourself then you will not be prey to such incoherent babbling and well what can i say, prejudiced bilge water of a post, or alternatively like ummm you can get a life,
Any mirrors in your house?
and as for the scriptural references to Christ being the Archangel Michael perhaps you can post their refutation, Mr.Big!
The Bible doesn't say that Bullwinkle the Moose is not Michael the archangel, either. From that, what can we infer?
oh and while we are here perhaps you will be as kind to post the human rights cases that Jehovahs witnesses have won in the supreme court of the united States of America, guaranteeing freedom for all, Mr.Big!
Read the following very closely: freedom never occurs without military victory. As of this writing, JW's eschew military service. You do the math...
Originally posted by FreakyKBHperhaps you may post something with content, then we can take it from there. As for sensationalistic journalism, well, i could buy the News of the world, or better still, the Beano comic and have a laugh at the same time.
[b]yawn is this the best you have got, libel against a mans character whom you have never met (does that not strike you as prejudice, it does to me)
Libel typically carries with it the ability to show the accusation(s) lack substantiation. If you wish to use the term, you may want to consider the fact that I've not said anything the man himself would out military victory. As of this writing, JW's eschew military service. You do the math...[/b]
Originally posted by robbie carrobieSince you seemed to have missed the content, I charged the following items.
perhaps you may post something with content, then we can take it from there.
1. The apostle Paul specifically instructed believers to grow in grace and in the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. Along these lines, he also specifically instructed believers to refrain from getting caught up in speculation about the Christ's return. Why then, did Russlle ignore the leading apostle's direct order and pursue such secondary concerns?
2. Without benefit of knowing the original language of either the Old or New Testaments, without the necessity of studying ancient history--- not even contemporary with the time of the advent of the Church Age, let alone the Age of Israel which preceded it--- or anything beyond seven years of basic middle school education, Russell deigned his understanding of spirituality as superior to that which was known in his day by men learned in such things. Was the knowledge of his day perfect? Absolutely not: but it was a hell of a lot closer to the truth than anything Russell was able to come up with.
3. Despite all of his arrogance, the cherry on top was the first date which came and went. As if it wasn't bad enough that he claimed everyone else had it all wrong; or that despite his general lack of education he had it all right; he still shouted from the roof tops that Christ's return would happen in April 1878.
(All of this is pretty good stuff, considering ol' Russell had thrown his Bible away when he was younger. Must have found another copy.)
4. Unable to control his own household. That's pretty straightforward.
Originally posted by FreakyKBHYou guys really need to get over this Russell thing. He was just a man that was searching for the truth in the Bible and trying to get away from the falsehoods and teachings in of the religions around him. What is so bad about that? What faults he had was because he was a human and no different then yourself...
Since you seemed to have missed the content, I charged the following items.
1. The apostle Paul specifically instructed believers to grow in grace and in the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. Along these lines, he also specifically instructed believers to refrain from getting caught up in speculation about the Christ's return. Why then, did Russlle ...[text shortened]... another copy.)
4. Unable to control his own household. That's pretty straightforward.
Sure he origanlly had dates and time wrong but at least he was on the right track and doing something about what he was finding and yes, with the help of Jehovah. The Bible does say the truth would become brighter and brighter as time went on. So...that means that the correct understanding of the truth may not be correct at first.
Originally posted by FreakyKBHpoint number one,
Since you seemed to have missed the content, I charged the following items.
1. The apostle Paul specifically instructed believers to grow in grace and in the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. Along these lines, he also specifically instructed believers to refrain from getting caught up in speculation about the Christ's return. Why then, did Russlle another copy.)
4. Unable to control his own household. That's pretty straightforward.
were not the apostles of the Christ interested in Christs return or presence, let me answer that for you? or on second thoughts, why don't you read Matthew chapter 24 and rethink your rather ill concieved and in my opinion vain assertion.
point number two,
perhaps you can point out where Russell has ever claimed that he was infallible? perhaps you can point out where Russell ever claimed that he was either a prophet or inspired of God.
point number three is unworthy of any reply, see the above, for the apostles of Christ made many mistakes, but did it render their worship invalid, nope i don't think so.
point number four is also not only laughable, but utterly devoid on any type of relevance, other than to Mr. Russell himself, and quite frankly, do you also go around you're own friends and neighbours poking into there marital affairs? there are words for that type of behaviour you know.
now if you have quite finished apostatising against Mr. Russell, well you know, i got a zillion other things id rather be doing that refuting your, to be quite honest, unoriginal claims.
My problem is that if the founder was faulty to such a degree then thats a problem. I however believe that there are good sincere people that are part of the J-Dubs no doubt. The problem is that what have the J-Dubs done to correct Russell's teachings. If any so Called Christian leader did the whole date predicting and all of that stuff that leader would get slammed. Look at the guy who said if he did not get a million dollars God would kill him. Funny but that guy got slammed by the media and all I guess rightfully so. Also God wants us to be truthful right? No matter what.
Manny
Originally posted by menace71i am amazed Manny, really i am, for it seems to me that Jehovahs Witnesses must be the only organisation that has revised their teaching as understanding and knowledge has progressed, considering the interest in Mr. Russells thoughts and the controversy they seem to awaken, is this not what is meant to happen in the face of reason?
My problem is that if the founder was faulty to such a degree then thats a problem. I however believe that there are good sincere people that are part of the J-Dubs no doubt. The problem is that what have the J-Dubs done to correct Russell's teachings. If any so Called Christian leader did the whole date predicting and all of that stuff that leader would ge ...[text shortened]... all I guess rightfully so. Also God wants us to be truthful right? No matter what.
Manny