And Equal Time for the Gap Theory

Originally posted by RJHinds
[b]Originally posted by SwissGambit
I read it like this:

God creates the heavens and the formless earth covered by water.
God hovers over the waters for an indeterminate time.
God creates light and separates it from darkness. Only now does Day 1 begin.

The 6 days of Gen 2 refer to completion of the work started at the creation of light. The e last week; but I will not go into that now, in order to keep this post from being too long.[/b]

I am confused. Your reply is to SwissGambit. But you posted it in response to my post.

SwissGambit, seems to be following a God created CHAOS first, kind of understanding. (if I understand his comment rightly)

I follow a Destruction / Reconstruction understanding. The earth became without form and void.

In relation to life, the earth BECAME in a state of ruin sometime in that unspecified gap of time.

Originally posted by jaywill
I am confused. Your reply is to SwissGambit. But you posted it in response to my post.

SwissGambit, seems to be following a God created CHAOS first, kind of understanding. (if I understand his comment rightly)

I follow a Destruction / Reconstruction understanding. The earth became without form and void.

In relation to life, the earth BECAME in a state of ruin sometime in that unspecified gap of time.

Wrong answer. This verse is referring to the Earth not being finished and it was not yet ready for habitation. It BECAME that way at a point in time as God was making it. At that point in time God needed to make Light before finishing the Earth. That is all that is saying, otherwise, how can you reconcile Genesis 2:1, which points back to Genesis 1:1?

Originally posted by RJHinds
Wrong answer. This verse is referring to the Earth not being finished and it was not yet ready for habitation. It BECAME that way at a point in time as God was making it. At that point in time God needed to make Light before finishing the Earth. That is all that is saying, otherwise, how can you reconcile Genesis 2:1, which points back to Genesis 1:1?

Wrong answer. This verse is referring to the Earth not being finished and it was not yet ready for habitation. It BECAME that way at a point in time as God was making it. At that point in time God needed to make Light before finishing the Earth. That is all that is saying, otherwise, how can you reconcile Genesis 2:1, which points back to Genesis 1:1?

Then why does it not say "And God said Let there be darkness" ?

If darkness was created first why not "Let there be darkness" before we read "Let there be light" ?

"God is light and in Him is no darkness at all" (1 John 1:5)
I know that this is more spiritual than physical but it still is a good point. You are saying that the one in whom is no darkness at all spoke and out of Him darkness was the default item to come into existence.

The strong hint in the conclusion of the Bible is that the abolishing of the sea corresponds to the abolishing of death:

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. AND THE SEA IS NO MORE." (Rev. 21:1 my emphasis)

Compare this with Rev.21:4 - "And DEATH SHALL BE NO MORE".

If the sea of deep waters is so strongly associated with death in the end of the Bible, there is good reason that the sea signals some residue of DAMAGE in God's creation.

We see no command of "Let there be an abyss ".
We see no command of "Let there be darkness".

And the dry land that we do see, comes up from underneath the waters on the THIRD day (Genesis 1:9). This strongly is a type of Christ rising from the dead on the third day.

Just as the new creation of children of God are regenerated from the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead (1 Peter 1:3) , so PRIOR to the mentioning of any life (from v.11 - Day #3 ) we first see the dry land coming up out from underneath the waters.

Compare:

" And God said, Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear; and it was so. (v.9) And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas; and God saw that it was good. (v.10). And God said, Let the earth sprout grass, herbs yeilding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit according to their kind ..." (v.11)

First - dry land appears from underneath the waters.
Then all manner of LIFE comes into being.
This is the typology.

And the antitype. First Christ is raised from the dead. And through that resurrection man according to God's purpose, is regenerated with the divine life of God imparted into him. He is born again:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has regenerated us unto a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead." (1 Peter 1:3)

I submit that Christ's life imparting resurrection is the underlying symbol of the Holy Spirit even in the story of creation. And the appearrance of darkness and the deep sea is suggestive of something opposing God's plan rather than a benigh "not ready yet-ness" of the world.

Originally posted by jaywill
[quote] Wrong answer. This verse is referring to the Earth not being finished and it was not yet ready for habitation. It BECAME that way at a point in time as God was making it. At that point in time God needed to make Light before finishing the Earth. That is all that is saying, otherwise, how can you reconcile Genesis 2:1, which points back to Genesis 1:1 ...[text shortened]... ing God's plan rather than a benigh "not ready yet-ness" of the world.

Genesis 1

Verse 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

As we see from the above verse, {b]darkness was already there.[/b]
Darkness by definition is an absence of light. Therefore, darkness is not something that needs to be created.

Verse 3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Genesis 1

Verse 2 The earth was without form, and void; and [b]darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

As we see from the above verse, {b]darkness was already there.[/b]
Darkness by definition is an absence of light. Therefore, darkness is not something that needs to be created.

Verse 3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.[/b]

Why does it have to be 6,000 years ago?

Originally posted by RJHinds
Genesis 1

Verse 2 The earth was without form, and void; and [b]darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

As we see from the above verse, {b]darkness was already there.[/b]
Darkness by definition is an absence of light. Therefore, darkness is not something that needs to be created.

Verse 3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.[/b]

Genesis 1

Verse 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

As we see from the above verse, {b]darkness was already there.
Darkness by definition is an absence of light. Therefore, darkness is not something that needs to be created.

Verse 3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.

I agree that darkness was already there. The question is could it have been the result of some previous divine overthrow in a pre-Adamic world.

We know from other passages that Satan had a kingdom. We know that He wanted to ascend and put his throne above the throne of God. It is quite possible that the book of Job is refering to this great pre-Adamic rebellion which brought on a judgment and darkness on the earth -

"He [God] is wise in heart and mighty in strength - Who has ever resisted Him and come through whole ? -

He removes mountains, and they do not know it, When He overturns them in His anger; Who shakes the earth from its place, And its pillars shake;

Who commands the sun, and it does not rise, And seals up the stars; "(Job 9:4-7)

The prophet Job may be refering to the folly of Satan attempting to revolt against God the Creator in pre-Adamic time.

The reason why this passage could be about that event is because what follows this judgment in which the sun's light is darkened and the stars are sealed, are words which allude to God's making of the heavens familiar to us. Notice now how verse 9 follows verse 8:

"Who commands the sun, and it does not rise, And seals up the stars; Who alone stretched forth the heavens and trod upon the heights of the sea; Who made the Bear, Orion, and the Pleiades, ..." (Job 9:8,9)

Notice the sequence:

1.) God JUDGES the lights of the sun and stars.
2.) God stretches forth the heavens and the stars with constellations.

The terminating of the sun light and star light is associated with His overturning mountains in His anger. That anger related to the audacity of some being rebelling against His Supreme Kingship over the creation.

And I think this passage of Destruction and Reconstruction could refer to the events which rendered the earth without form and void with darkness. The sun is made to reappear to the seer. The stars are said to be made also in Genesis the 4th day.

Strictly speaking the word asah is used there as made for the fourth day light "holders" of the sun, moon, and stars. The word created - is not used. Therefore just as God caused the dry land to APPEAR from underneath the waters God also made to appear the sealed stars and the darkened absent sun.

Rather than a benigh, not yet ready, planet, I see a judged planet. It is indeed not yet ready for man until recovery, reconstruction, repair during the six days of Genesis 1. (Some further creation is done with man and some lives then created for this restored earth).

Originally posted by divegeester
Why does it [b]have to be 6,000 years ago?[/b]

I don't know. That was the decision of God. I am just a reporter.

Originally posted by jaywill
[quote] Genesis 1

Verse 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

As we see from the above verse, {b]darkness was already there.
Darkness by definition is an absence of light. Therefore, darkness is not something that needs to be created.

Ve ...[text shortened]... further creation is done with man and some lives then created for this restored earth).

It is obvious that there was a spirit world before this physical world was created. Everything was going good in this spirit world until the greatest spirit creature that God created decided that he no longer wanted to be a servant to God. He wanted to take the place of God. We see this spirit creature possessing the body of a serpent in his attempt to overthrown God's plan in a physcal world.

However, I think, Genesis is only concerned with presenting to man's understanding, the beginning of and creation of the physical world by God and it seems clear to me that this does not teach that another Earth was created and inhabited (by whatever) and then demolished. I think Genesis 2 prohibits that type of interpretation. However, we know Satan and man are capable of wild imaginations.

I believe the third heaven is spiritual and was already in existence spiritually. Therefore, it is not included in the creation of the physical heavens and the earth. Genesis is concerned only with the physical in this creation account in my opinion.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I don't know. That was the decision of God. I am just a reporter.

What is the basis of your belief about 6,000 years; where in the Bible does is say 6,000 years?

Originally posted by jaywill
This is a basic Old Earth Creation interpretation of Genesis.
Any Christians not accepting this I still love as brothers in Christ.

What do seekers think ?

[b] The Age of the Universe a Gap Theory

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rprmZ36ngrg[/b]

I have a lot of friends who believe in the Gap theory, I'm not one, but I could
be wrong.
Kelly

Originally posted by RJHinds
It is obvious that there was a spirit world before this physical world was created. Everything was going good in this spirit world until the greatest spirit creature that God created decided that he no longer wanted to be a servant to God. He wanted to take the place of God. We see this spirit creature possessing the body of a serpent in his attempt to ov the earth. Genesis is concerned only with the physical in this creation account in my opinion.

It is obvious that there was a spirit world before this physical world was created. Everything was going good in this spirit world until the greatest spirit creature that God created decided that he no longer wanted to be a servant to God. He wanted to take the place of God. We see this spirit creature possessing the body of a serpent in his attempt to overthrown God's plan in a physcal world.

Your comments, I think show that you are following me fairly well. You just don't agree. I prefer that to someone who doesn't understand.

Having said that, I have a little more to add. The passages concerning the Daystar's [Lucifer - Latin] rebellion suggest to me that his sphere of dominion included the earth, and possibly beyond.

"How you have fallen from heaven, O Daystar, son of the dawn! How you have been hewn down to earth, You who made nations fall prostrate!

But you, you said in your heart:
I will ASCEND to heaven;
ABOVE the stars of God I will exult my throne.
I will sit upon the mount of assembly in the uttermost parts of the north.

I will ASCEND above the heights of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.
But you will be brought down to Sheol,
To the uttermost parts of the pit. "(See Ezek. 14:12-15 my emphasis)

What appears to me is the pre-Adamic Daystar trying to expand his power upward to and above God in heaven. For this reason I regard the earth being in existence at the time of this rebellion.

Now if only a spiritual heavenly realm existed I do not know where the Daystar would be expelled TO if the universe had not yet come into being. Perhaps one can conceive an answer to this problem. However, what is more plausible is that the universe existed already. God created and assigned this great being a realm of kingship which included the earth, possibly more.

If only heaven and a spiritual realm existed, from where would the Daystar ascend ? He would already be in heaven among the other angels as stars (if that is what is meant).

Now if this Daystar had access to go up into God's presence as well as rule the planet in the universe, that would make the passage more understandable. Notice now Ezekiel's parallel history of the Anointed Cherub

"Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre,, and say to him, Thus says the Lord Jehovah, O you who sealed up perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty,

You were in Eden, the garden of God. ... You were the anointed cherub who covered the Ark; indeed I set you, so that you were upon the holy mountain of God; you walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, until unrighteousness was found in you.

By the abundance of your trading they filled your midst with violence, and you sinned. So I cast you out as profane from the mountain of God, and I destroyed you, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty, you corrupted your wisdom by reason of your brightness. I cast you to the ground; I presented you before kings that they may look at you." (See Ezek. 28:12-17)

When I put the two passages together, Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28, I see an ancient royal superhuman being who had acccess to an extreme closeness to God yet could "traffic" back and forth to the earth. And on earth he had a kingdom.

I do not regard the Eden, the garden of God as solely a spiritual heaven when no universe existed. I consider this ancient Eden probably a realm in the created physical universe.

However, I think, Genesis is only concerned with presenting to man's understanding, the beginning of and creation of the physical world by God and it seems clear to me that this does not teach that another Earth was created and inhabited (by whatever) and then demolished. I think Genesis 2 prohibits that type of interpretation. However, we know Satan and man are capable of wild imaginations.

I believe the third heaven is spiritual and was already in existence spiritually. Therefore, it is not included in the creation of the physical heavens and the earth. Genesis is concerned only with the physical in this creation account in my opinion.

Let me comment on this in another post.

However, I think, Genesis is only concerned with presenting to man's understanding, the beginning of and creation of the physical world by God and it seems clear to me that this does not teach that another Earth was created and inhabited (by whatever) and then demolished. I think Genesis 2 prohibits that type of interpretation. However, we know Satan and man are capable of wild imaginations.

But when we consider the "plenary" revelation of the Bible, we put many passages together.

I might agree that just reading Genesis 1,2 alone, would not likely lead to much else but a creation story. But there is the other passagess on creation and the ancient history of the Daystar and the Anointed Cherub. This being became Satan. And he was in "Eden, the garden of God".

While you do have a serpent in Adam's Eden you do not have anything discibed as in Ezekiel 28 about the glorious dwelling of an anointed cherub perfect in beauty.

A prior Eden, the garden of God must be the meaning. Not a slightest hint of an Edenic garden as Ezekiel discribes is in Genesis.

I think there is a time eventually when we have to consider more passages together for more light on a certain truth.

I believe the third heaven is spiritual and was already in existence spiritually. Therefore, it is not included in the creation of the physical heavens and the earth. Genesis is concerned only with the physical in this creation account in my opinion.

I don't disagree with this. But eventually we often have to gather more information for a fuller revelation of the truth.

This principle you already apply to Genesis, I would say. You have to consult other passages to get an understanding that the serpent in chapter three has something to do with Satan. Ie. " ... the ancient serpent, he who is called the Devil and Satan, he who deceives the whole inhabited earth ...." (Rev. 12:9)

We understand from this last book (and possibly before) that " the ancient serpent " is the Devil and Satan. Genesis chapter three does not tell us that. So for a deeper grasp of the Bible's revelation we have to gather other data from elsewhere, carefully.

I think the same priniciple applies to Genesis 1:1,2. It becomes necessary as the church grows in insight, to consult other statements about the events of the ancient past. The Bible is like a many layered onion. The first reading may not call for this further inquiry into what else the Bible has said.

And of course, the center and circumference of the Bible is Christ. Regardless of how one feels about the Earth's age, Christ is very much in the symbolism of Genesis 1 and 2. ( I do not say that that means one has to see an older earth ).

We'll continue.

Originally posted by divegeester
What is the basis of your belief about 6,000 years; where in the Bible does is say 6,000 years?

The kid that sunhouse hates answers that question in this video:

YouTube

The Holy Bible never mentions 6,000 years, but one can use the Geneologies and some other statements of time throughout the text to make s good estimate of the time elapsed from Adam to Jesus. Most scholars come up with about 4000 years from Adam to the birth of Jesus and then we add 2000 years to get about 6000 years. Some believe there may be some time not accounted for but, if so, it does not seem likely that it could be more than 2,000 more years.

Originally posted by jaywill

It is obvious that there was a spirit world before this physical world was created. Everything was going good in this spirit world until the greatest spirit creature that God created decided that he no longer wanted to be a servant to God. He wanted to take the place of God. We see this spirit creature possessing the body of a serpent in his attempt reation account in my opinion.

Let me comment on this in another post.

In the book of Job, there still seems to be a relationship between God and Satan, when God asks Satan where he has been. Satan says something about roaming the Earth. Although Satan seems to be complaining to God about mankind, Satan does not seem to have been banished from the third Heaven at that time. The Land of Uz, was Job's homeland, so it is very likely that Uz was his father, since Job was richest the man in the Land.

So the bitter confilict between God and Satan that other Bible verses speak had not happened at the time of Job. So these Bible verses you refer to may even be like the prophecies of Christ in the Old Testament that tell of a futher time that has only partly taken place.

Originally posted by jaywill
[quote] However, I think, Genesis is only concerned with presenting to man's understanding, the beginning of and creation of the physical world by God and it seems clear to me that this does not teach that another Earth was created and inhabited (by whatever) and then demolished. I think Genesis 2 prohibits that type of interpretation. However, we know Sata ...[text shortened]... do not say that that means one has to see an older earth ).

We'll continue.

I think the reference to the Daystar and the Anointed Cherub refers to Satan, when he was still a good spirit creature in the third Heaven and serving God. At that time he did have a glorious dwelling place in Heaven.

Yes, I agree we are putting a puzzle together, here a little, there a little to understand the Holy Bible. But we must be careful not to try to force pieces where they don't belong in order to make our own picture.

HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!