All salvation is by grace...

Originally posted by Badwater
Not everyone can make that choice, that's what I'm driving at, and it has much more to do than with just babies and young children. The statement is as myopic as the perspective. Your expressed idea of God cannot possibly universally fit all persons! Do you really need for me to list each and every exception to your statement?

So again, what of the people God Cannot help? What of those who cannot make a choice? Where is God for them?

God takes care of those you refer to---babies, imbeciles, people in vegetataive states, ...

Originally posted by PinkFloyd
God takes care of those you refer to---babies, imbeciles, people in vegetataive states, ...

No, God does not.

This fact was a fundamental issue of 20th century Jewish theology. If God takes care of everyone, if God watches and will stand by his chosen people, then why do so many die in the Holocaust. Apologetics are NOT good enough. Platitudes are NOT good enough. Burying one's head in the sand and saying it's not so is NOT good enough.

God does not take care of everyone. Theistic fantasies that would proclaim this notion as fact are patently false and ignore the obvious. Hey, if that's what you or anyone else wants to do, then great; but you spiritually pluck out your own eyes in order that you do not see and can maintain your own false pretense.

Originally posted by Badwater
No, God does not.

This fact was a fundamental issue of 20th century Jewish theology. If God takes care of everyone, if God watches and will stand by his chosen people, then why do so many die in the Holocaust. Apologetics are NOT good enough. Platitudes are NOT good enough. Burying one's head in the sand and saying it's not so is NOT good enough.

God ...[text shortened]... luck out your own eyes in order that you do not see and can maintain your own false pretense.

The thing is, this life is a temp state nothing more the eternal is what
really matters. We can be and are taken care of here, but here we are
also subjected to what evil can get away with. The issue with evil is that
it is real and does play a part in the grand scheme of things, but it is
just a small bump in the road for the eternal and its effects are only
as temp as this life time for those that have a right relationship with
God.
Kelly

Originally posted by twhitehead
And here is the heart of your folly. You have a point to make and will make up any amount of nonsense to try and support your point. The problem is that nobody will take your point to heart because it comes on the back of nonsense.
I notice thought that you have shied away from telling me who 'helps out' when I make an unrighteous decision. Who is it tha ...[text shortened]... , then neither can God place blame on me for my unrighteousness. You cannot have it both ways.

The basic flaw in your whole argument is that if I cannot claim credit for my righteousness, then neither can God place blame on me for my unrighteousness. You cannot have it both ways.
-------------------whitey------------------

Wrong again. You CAN claim credit for the righteousness that both you and God have worked together to create in you (as opposed to "your" righteousness) , but as long as you think it "belongs" to you as if it originates "from" you then this is an illusion. You claim credit for the part you have played in what God is doing in your heart because you don't have to co-operate if you don't want to.

God does not "blame" you for being unrighteous because he knows that evil has contaminated our hearts. The evil or sin within us sometimes causes us to sin against our better judgement. However, God does give us ways of resisting temptation and can judge us if we don't use them.

Only the individual knows what they are capable of and it's betwene them, their conscinece and God.

You are creating a false straw man. Instead of accusing me of trying to have it both ways you had better exam why you struggle to appreciate the complexity of this position. If you want simplistic morality fit for kindergarden then I will not give it to you. I have too much faith and respect for your ability to think deeply about this.

So decide what you want to have presented to you. Simplistic rubbish or a debate about the complex relationship between what we do and what God helps us do. It's a subtle thing. When a man has faith how much of it is "him" and how much of it is God providing faith? Jesus pointed out that "no-one comes to me unless the Father helps him" - suggesting that it's both God's prompting and power but also a man's choice.

What I am suggesting in this thread is that God is doing a lot of work for which we like to take the credit. We like to imagine that we have become a "righteous" person off our own backs when in reality God has done much more for us via grace than we would admit or realise.

So what do you want whitey - grown up food or this baby milk nonsense? Away with these strawmen!

(BTW - The argument also works in reverse regarding the enemy and unrighteousness and judgement - I have not gone into this partly because I prefer to talk about God and what he does rather than give the enemy any free publicity. But to answer that question - yes God can both judge us for co-operating with the enemy and also forgive us for times when we are overwhelmed by him. )

Originally posted by Badwater
...

So again, what of the people God Cannot help? What of those who cannot make a choice? Where is God for them?

My question still has not been answered, by anyone. It is not rhetorical...

Originally posted by tomtom232
Actually all that crap comes from adrenaline. Wait...that means you worship a chemical. I'm having an epiphany! All christians are drugies! Thats why they have no logic...

I'm not talking about situations where adrenaline takes over. I'm talking about situations where our conscience kicks in and lays out before us a moral choice.

Originally posted by Badwater
[b]No, God does not.

Apologetics are NOT good enough. Platitudes are NOT good enough.

[/b]
1. Yes, God does.

2. They ARE good enough for ME.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
Then obviously, according to Daniel, they are not anymore.
God did, with a little help of Hitler, an impressing job. But in the end, neither god nor Hitler finished their job.

True.

Hitler didn't finish his job, you could say God hasn't finished His job as the world hasn't ended yet and the only way God can't help someone is if they refuse it.

Originally posted by Badwater
No, God does not.

This fact was a fundamental issue of 20th century Jewish theology. If God takes care of everyone, if God watches and will stand by his chosen people, then why do so many die in the Holocaust. Apologetics are NOT good enough. Platitudes are NOT good enough. Burying one's head in the sand and saying it's not so is NOT good enough.

God ...[text shortened]... luck out your own eyes in order that you do not see and can maintain your own false pretense.

If God takes care of everyone, if God watches and will stand by his chosen people, then why do so many die in the Holocaust. Apologetics are NOT good enough. Platitudes are NOT good enough. Burying one's head in the sand and saying it's not so is NOT good enough.
-------------badwater---------------------------

Absolutely right. They are not enough. Any Christian who thinks that there are easy answers to questions like these is deluding themselves. It's BS! No Christian can ignore the immense suffering and pain in this world that makes God look distant and remote.

The only authentic response to an issue like this is to refer to the cross and the redemption of Christ from death and suffering. Christ himself asked his Father why he had foresaken him whilst hanging there. God abandoned him , but only from a worldy perspective. He died , as we all must , but God did take care of him in the end and he was resurrected. From a spiritual perspective he was always protected and cared for.

So the only question here is what do we mean when we ask has God "taken care" of someone? Does it mean no suffering and no physical death? Apparently not for Christ , and apparently not for many millions either.

I think that God taking care of someone means something much deeper and much less palatable. So why don't we cut to the chase and get down to real business here. If God is real then there must be countless millions who have suffered who are now in glory. If God is false then the whole deal is off anyway. But don't say that because God has allowed some people to die and suffer in this world then he has not taken care of them , because if he is real then the story is not over yet.......

(Incidentally I think this is the big reason why Christianity is the only authentic religion , because it does not run from death and suffering , God himself dies and suffers. In comparison all other religions are platitudes)

Originally posted by Badwater
My question still has not been answered, by anyone. It is not rhetorical...

I don't know if I have an answer for you.

Originally posted by Badwater
My question still has not been answered, by anyone. It is not rhetorical...

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough: GOD TAKES CARE OF THEM.

Originally posted by knightmeister
ALL salvation IS by grace either directly or indirectly. We cannot "attain" eternal life unless it is given to us. We are not eternal. He is. Unless He gives life to us via an act of grace how can we "get" it. We can't even create ourselves or control our ageing process , how can we become eternal on our own without grace?

We can work at it and wor n righteousness does not really "belong" to us anyway. We have borrowed it from God.

Sorry, but I am confused what any of this has to do with 'grace'. Please clarify what you mean by 'grace'. I was under the impression that in theological context it is tied to bestowment that is explicitly unmerited. You don't seem to be respecting this notional boundary.

In fact, you seem to want to couple the word to just about anything willy-nilly, even to things that I would think are not even merit-apt (by which I mean things about which it is not even appropriate to talk of them as though they are merited or unmerited). For instance, what do you mean when you say "we wouldn't even exist without grace"? Surely you don't mean that our mere existence is unmerited -- that seems like nonsense. But then what do you mean? Sure, supposing God created us, then we owe our existence to God. So what? What does that have to do with the subject of 'grace'?

Your arguments seem lacking on other points as well:

We cannot "attain" eternal life unless it is given to us. We are not eternal. He is. Unless He gives life to us via an act of grace how can we "get" it. We can't even create ourselves or control our ageing process , how can we become eternal on our own without grace?

As far as I can tell, none of this has anything really to do with 'grace'. Your thoughts don't make any sense. My newborn baby cannot ''attain" proper nutrition unless it is given to him; he would just wither away if left to his own devices. So my providing my newborn with proper care and nutrition is somehow a matter of grace on my part? Of course not: I have obligation to attend to his needs. So, the fact that one cannot "attain" something unless it is given to him doesn't have anything necessarily to do with grace.

Elsewhere, You also seem to want to hold that anything which proximately is sourced by us, but which ultimately derives from God has something to do with divine grace (oh, except of course for crappy stuff -- somehow they are different, or are not ultimately sourced from God). But what on earth do you mean? Are you saying we are unmerited in our handling of such things? And what would that mean anyhow? Please clarify.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Is there any partivcular point you want me to address first ? You have asked at least 3 separate questions. Maybe if you could prioritise one of them?

My point is that we can get credit for righteous choices but God helps us to make those choices. For example , if we act courageously to break up a fight where a man is being beaten and put ourselves to the world because our ego cannot stand the idea that we are just channels for righteousness.

My point is that we can get credit for righteous choices but God helps us to make those choices. For example , if we act courageously to break up a fight where a man is being beaten and put ourselves in danger the process will go something like this.....

God will prompt us to do something via our conscience and we choose to go with that choice. God then gives us courage and wisdom in that situation. So we do infact get credit for participating in the process but the power and prompting to do good is supplied by God. It's a bit like helping someone make a meal but they supply all the ingredients. We can make a meal but we must recognise that the meal does not stem from us. But we can humbly participate in the making of the meal and God will credit this to us

Why would I want to take on this unnecessary explanatory baggage? So I need to posit the existence of some supernatural sky fairy just to explain an instance of human courage? Retarded.

And what does any of this have to do with 'grace'?

Originally posted by knightmeister
If God takes care of everyone, if God watches and will stand by his chosen people, then why do so many die in the Holocaust. Apologetics are NOT good enough. Platitudes are NOT good enough. Burying one's head in the sand and saying it's not so is NOT good enough.
-------------badwater---------------------------

Absolutely right. They are not enoug ...[text shortened]... ffering , God himself dies and suffers. In comparison all other religions are platitudes)

Right you are. "What of the people that God cannot help?" infers that Christians must make the tough acknowledgement that God does not help everyone - not even them, not even the chosen race (the Jews).

But I go further. I do not say that Christians are suffering, that they encounter evil, that they will feel pain - I say that God is not there. Believe what you want; but most assuredly the Jewish apologetics continue to believe in spite of their abandonment in the face of the Holocaust. I've read more than one Jewish theologian purport the pithy notion that it was God being gassed in the chambers of the concentration camps. Nonsense. God was not there. God is not there for everyone, all the time. God is not necessarily there if you petition it. If a happy coincidence transpires that you can attribute to God, then great. Many do.

Now - do I believe in God? I do, but not the theistic, all-knowing, all-present God. That cannot and does not happen. It demonstrably does not happen, so in order to engage in a rational spirituality one needs to grasp their theology in the realm of the present, and not in 400, 1000, 2,000 year old ideas of theism, Christology, and spirituality.

Originally posted by PinkFloyd
Perhaps I wasn't clear enough: GOD TAKES CARE OF THEM.

Read my post(s). It is demonstrably not so; just because you utter the words "God takes care of them" does not mean it happens. You have addressed no point that I have raised.