25 Oct 06
Originally posted by EcstremeVenomNo, God exists or you wouldn't be a Christian.
so those type of Christians, would look at it as if it were similiar to confucianism or something? that God doesnt exist, and that the bible is just a way you should live? can you give any examples of symbolism in the bible?
The whole thing can be taken as one big moral if you like - live right, be good, and good things will happen to you.
25 Oct 06
Originally posted by amannionok i get it, like a fictional story that tells a lesson? so if you believe in it that way, then you actually don't know anything about God.
No, God exists or you wouldn't be a Christian.
The whole thing can be taken as one big moral if you like - live right, be good, and good things will happen to you.
25 Oct 06
Originally posted by EcstremeVenomAh nice question and this is where it gets a little grey.
ok i get it, like a fictional story that tells a lesson? so if you believe in it that way, then you actually don't know anything about God.
Whilst many theological scholars would say that the biblical stories are not historical in the sense we would use it today - you know, this event happened at this time and with these people and so on - they would argue that the characters in the stories and the notion and characteristcs of God so portryed, were based on actual people with actual experiences of God.
So they would argue that you know alot about God from these stories.
The problem is that before the complete dominance of our culture by the western scientific tradition around the 16th and 17th centuries, there were two equally important ways of knowing about the world. These were what we might call today the scientific way and the mythic way.
Today we would denigrate the mythic as only being about telling stories.
If you want to get to the truth we would say, you've got to analyse and dissect and experiment.
In the past this was one way of understanding the world, and coupled nicely with an alternate way which was the mythic.
Because we all of us - Christian and nonChristian, fundamentalist and not - live in the modern world, the notion of accepting anything other than the scientific way of knowing the world is anathema.
You want the truth - you analyse the world scientifically.
So, for fundamentalists, this means treating the bible as if it were actually true - that is, understanding it from the scientific perspective.
For people living in earlier times this was unnecessary.
I think we're probably the poorer for it ...
(By the way, a good account of this is provided by Karen Armstrong in her book about fundamentalist religions, The Battle for God. It's worth taking a look at.)
25 Oct 06
Originally posted by EcstremeVenomJesus' parables would be an obvious example.
so those type of Christians, would look at it as if it were similiar to confucianism or something? that God doesnt exist, and that the bible is just a way you should live? can you give any examples of symbolism in the bible?
25 Oct 06
Originally posted by amannionis it possible that it is exaggerated? that it is based on facts but exaggerated to be more interesting? for ex. the Iliad and the Odyssey, some people believe it was based on true events but exaggerated by Homer.
Ah nice question and this is where it gets a little grey.
Whilst many theological scholars would say that the biblical stories are not historical in the sense we would use it today - you know, this event happened at this time and with these people and so on - they would argue that the characters in the stories and the notion and characteristcs of God so po ...[text shortened]... in her book about fundamentalist religions, The Battle for God. It's worth taking a look at.)
25 Oct 06
Originally posted by EcstremeVenomStart at the beginning.
i know there are millions of things symbolic about the bible, but i dont have one to look them up and dont know any off the top of my head.
The creation story is meant as a symbol/allegory for the beauty and brilliance of the universe and the things in it that God created. (If you believe in God that is.)
25 Oct 06
Originally posted by EcstremeVenomSo do you believe we are all decended from adam (via noah)? If so then what happened to all the other races? Why arent we all the same race/skin color? Did we evolve? Oh no! thats blasphemy!
i dont believe in evolution, i dont believe that we evolved from apes. what about the other apes? shouldnt they be humans too? how long ago were dinosaurs around?
Looks like you skipped science class.
25 Oct 06
1 edit
Originally posted by amannionrec'd.
Ah nice question and this is where it gets a little grey.
Whilst many theological scholars would say that the biblical stories are not historical in the sense we would use it today - you know, this event happened at this time and with these people and so on - they would argue that the characters in the stories and the notion and characteristcs of God so po in her book about fundamentalist religions, The Battle for God. It's worth taking a look at.)
EDIT: As one rabbi put it, the opening words of Torah are “Once upon a time” (b’reisheet, generally translated as “in the beginning,” can also be “with beginning,” etc.). The same rabbi said: “Torah is story!” And those who collected, preserved and edited the ancient stories kept the good, the bad and the ugly.
An interesting, and from my view tragic, spin-off of our lost understanding and appreciation of mythic story-telling, is that so many nontheists have become convinced that the biblical literalists/historicists are correct in that such a reading is, ought to be, and/or always has been normative—and, understandably, reject it all. Such folks generally would have no problems with other mythologies—or with Lord of the Rings, say. Of course, there is a weaving of history and myth in the biblical narratives: a literary genre (perhaps largely created by redaction) of “histo-myth.”
Still, failure to recognize it as fundamentally myth, allegory, poetry, etc, leads to the problem that I call “turning mythology into fantasy by trying to read it literally.”
25 Oct 06
Originally posted by amannionYes, fantasy novels don't quite cut it.
I think we're probably the poorer for it ...
Mircea Eliade is a wonderful writer for anyone trying to understand the mythic from a contemporary perspective. Jung helps with incorporating it. There are others, too (any suggestions?).
25 Oct 06
Originally posted by amannionSorry, don't agree with you.
Start at the beginning.
The creation story is meant as a symbol/allegory for the beauty and brilliance of the universe and the things in it that God created. (If you believe in God that is.)
All of this business about allegory is a modern take.
This fairy story was written at a time when such things were taken at face value.
25 Oct 06
1 edit
Originally posted by sugiezdCorrect--the value of myth for early societies was precisely the reality of the story, which took place "in that time", the Dreamtime if you like. Or, if you prefer, the function of the myth was to connect society with "true reality", abode of the gods.
This fairy story was written at a time when such things were taken at face value.
Fancy a mushroom?