No computers allowed

Originally posted by Polenzia
It is? Tell me how.

Personally I take the view that I'm playing on the Internet. So hey, who knows what my opponent is doing. I love this form of the game, and I play straight. If my opponent doesn't, because they have used a computer/engine, then they haven't defeated me, the computer/engine has. And they are just sad.

I used to say that if you wan ...[text shortened]... the game, and don't get too hung up about what is happening at the other side of the board.

The games of a suspected cheater can be analyzed using a strong chess engine. If the user's moves match the computer's 1st/2nd/3rd choices too often, then it's highly likely that player is cheating.

The site used to encourage people to submit a Fair Play Ticket if they suspected cheating. Several engine users were banned using the method described above. But lately, the site has stopped cracking down on engine users. Matchup rates are being openly published in the forums, and yet nothing is done about it.

It's got to be especially frustrating for some of the stronger players on the site - if you're rated 2200 or so [legitimately], odds are that you're playing engines in many of your games.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
The games of a suspected cheater can be analyzed using a strong chess engine. If the user's moves match the computer's 1st/2nd/3rd choices too often, then it's highly likely that player is cheating.

The site used to encourage people to submit a Fair Play Ticket if they suspected cheating. Several engine users were banned using the method described abo ...[text shortened]... ted 2200 or so [legitimately], odds are that you're playing engines in many of your games.

Well said. Preposterous numbers by users ignored by administrators. They may as well erase their claim of frowning on engine use.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
The games of a suspected cheater can be analyzed using a strong chess engine. If the user's moves match the computer's 1st/2nd/3rd choices too often, then it's highly likely that player is cheating.

The site used to encourage people to submit a Fair Play Ticket if they suspected cheating. Several engine users were banned using the method described abo ...[text shortened]... ted 2200 or so [legitimately], odds are that you're playing engines in many of your games.

I already know this of course. And it is definitely a tool that might be used against very high rated players. But tell me how you are going to detect somebody like me for instance? I could (but I don't) maintain a rating around 1800, occasionally using a weaker engine (Fritz5 or anyone of the free ones out there) to check I wasn't making an obvious blunder and maybe choose the weakest of the three best moves it highlighted in the position which would still be good enough in most positions. Lose the odd game to anybody rated over say, 1900. But still get enough help from an engine to have a rating higher than I should and win the odd tournament at my level.

Originally posted by Polenzia
I already know this of course.

You responded to the statement:
"I know that in CC is difficult to make proof of the use of computers but it is possible."

With:
"It is? Tell me how."

That's what made it sound like you didn't know about the matchup detection method.

Sure, it would be harder to bust someone using a weaker engine, but not as crucial IMO as decent human players actually have a chance to beat the weaker engines.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
You responded to the statement:
"I know that in CC is difficult to make proof of the use of computers but it is possible."

With:
"It is? Tell me how."

That's what made it sound like you didn't know about the matchup detection method.

Sure, it would be harder to bust someone using a weaker engine, but not as crucial IMO as decent human players actually have a chance to beat the weaker engines.

The question was "It is? Tell me how?" You chose to interpret it the way you did. But please, no offence intended. Feel free to interpret my posts however you wish. The question, and my point remains the same. How is it possible to know whether anybody that you are playing on this site is not using an engine? How do you know that, even if only once or twice during a game, somebody has a sneak look at an engine's response to their move to check if they have made a blunder? How do you know that during a game, in a crucial position where there is more than one sound move, your opponent doesn't just run it past an engine? The answer is that we don't. Which takes me back to my first post. Don't worry about it. Just accept it may happen, that you can't do anything about it, enjoy the game and accept you can't tell if somebody is using an engine (Unless somebody really can tell me how)

Originally posted by Polenzia
The question was "It is? Tell me how?" You chose to interpret it the way you did. But please, no offence intended. Feel free to interpret my posts however you wish. The question, and my point remains the same. How is it possible to know whether anybody that you are playing on this site is not using an engine? How do you know that, even if only once or twice ...[text shortened]... you can't tell if somebody is using an engine (Unless somebody really can tell me how)

I bet it's hard to stop cheating once you start. First an engine-generated move here or there, maybe once or twice a game max. Maybe more, with the engine set on a handicap level. But then why stop at 1800? If you tweak the engine, make it a little stronger, consult it more times during the game, you could be a mighty 2000 player.

Then you get away with it for months and you think you can never get caught, and you notice RHP isn't cracking down on blatant cheats anyway, and you decide to just max it out and let the engine play all your moves on the strongest setting. Why not? Once you've given away your ego to the machine [you don't need the feeling of pride from winning games yourself, or you delude yourself into thinking that somehow it's to your credit for being such a smart cheater], there is no reason to limit yourself to a low rating.

It is my contention that most cheaters could be caught eventually if we'd just use matchup analysis to ban them.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
I bet it's hard to stop cheating once you start. First an engine-generated move here or there, maybe once or twice a game max. Maybe more, with the engine set on a handicap level. But then why stop at 1800? If you tweak the engine, make it a little stronger, consult it more times during the game, you could be a mighty 2000 player.

Then you get away wi ...[text shortened]... at most cheaters could be caught eventually if we'd just use matchup analysis to ban them.

I'm with you one hundred percent. I couldn't say with any conviction that the scenario you describe won't happen. And if you are saying that some people may spiral down into letting an engine make all their moves to get a top rating, then I agree. It could happen (and probably has and does). I still wonder how many people on this site could honestly say they have never used an engine to look at a position in their games while the game was still in progress (I've never done it. Don't see the point.) My gut feeling is that most people play honestly. I think the rating spread supports that. But here's a question I would really like to hear your thoughts on (and anybody else's). Do you think using an engine once or twice a game to "assist" makes you any less of a cheat than somebody who uses one all the time to boost their rating and their fragile ego? And to go back to my very first question - how do you detect it? (You can't, can you?)

Originally posted by Polenzia
I'm with you one hundred percent. I couldn't say with any conviction that the scenario you describe won't happen. And if you are saying that some people may spiral down into letting an engine make all their moves to get a top rating, then I agree. It could happen (and probably has and does). I still wonder how many people on this site could honestly say the ...[text shortened]... And to go back to my very first question - how do you detect it? (You can't, can you?)

There's degrees of cheating on site as in all walks of life.
You wouldn't compare an armed bank robber to a shoplifter would you?
Both are criminals to some degree.
No, you can't stop it -there's no conclusive way to prove it.
I have an old chess computer but have only used it once:-
I accepted a draw in a game on site but thought I might have been able to force a win.
AFTER I'd accepted the draw , I dug out the machine, set it on a high level, plugged in the position and made it play itself.I got fed up after an hour and came back on site!!

Originally posted by Phlabibit
Well said. Preposterous numbers by users ignored by administrators. They may as well erase their claim of frowning on engine use.

One problem is that some of the loudest complainants frequently turned out to be the worst offenders. Another is that banning the real cheats has turned out not to be good enough for the baying mob - everybody even suspected of cheating by that mob has to be banned, or it's seen as evidence of the mods being on the side of the cheaters.

Under such circumstances, can you really blame them for giving up trying to please the howling crowd?

Richard

Originally posted by venda
There's degrees of cheating on site as in all walks of life.
You wouldn't compare an armed bank robber to a shoplifter would you?
Both are criminals to some degree.
No, you can't stop it -there's no conclusive way to prove it.
I have an old chess computer but have only used it once:-
I accepted a draw in a game on site but thought I might have been able t ...[text shortened]... in the position and made it play itself.I got fed up after an hour and came back on site!!

I understand the point you are making, but I think the analogy is wrong. No I would not compare a bank robber to a shoplifter in terms of the sentence I would hand down in court. Even though they are clearly both criminal activities. However, this site's terms and conditions make it clear the use of an engine is not allowed. So if you use it for one move in the game or for every move, you are still a cheat. Using a computer after a game has finished is fine. It's a good way to aid analysis and hopefully improve your chess skills. I wish I had the stamina and motivation to do it - but like you I get bored with it very quickly and would rather spend the time playing games that are still live 🙂