30 Jan 10
2 edits
Originally posted by KellyJayIf the time in the entire universe would halt to a zero, then you woudln't notice it, because your brain activity would also halt to a zero, as well as all measuring devices. You simply wouldn't notice it.
If we were to freeze all of the universe at a single point in time would it all stop at once, ...
Suppose I invent a device that halts time. This zero-time-property would spread (if this was as I designed it) throughout the entire universe radially outwards according to Einsteins law of a finite maximum velocity at v=c in vacuum. The sun would stop about 8 minutes later, Alha Centauri would stop 4 years and some month later, the Andromeda Galaxy would stop 2 million of years from now, and so on. The zero-time-property would spread out like an expanding bubble. A distant physicist in another galaxy wouldn't be able to observe anything before the surface of this expanding bubble hits him. Even when it hits him, he wouldn't notice anything.
For short: Noone would notice anything if time stops. We would only experience things before and after such a stop.
30 Jan 10
Time differs or the different conditions caused either the observer, or
devices being used to measure time to become altered?
The rate of passage of time differs.
Can we say
that an exact point in time like "now" for example is the same
throughout all of the universe?
Yes.
30 Jan 10
Originally posted by jekeckelI again ask you how do you know?
[b]Time differs or the different conditions caused either the observer, or
devices being used to measure time to become altered?
The rate of passage of time differs.
Can we say
that an exact point in time like "now" for example is the same
throughout all of the universe?
Yes.[/b]
If now is the same every or can be the same everyone at once, when
it isn't the same it is because of what? Or do you think it is always
the same every where at once?
Kelly
30 Jan 10
I again ask you how do you know?
Because of the theory of relativity.
[If now is the same every or can be the same everyone at once, when
it isn't the same it is because of what? Or do you think it is always
the same every where at once?[/b]
Consider that you could take a snapshot in R(3), say at x=3, and have a 2-dimensional y-z plane. That said, functions in R(3) do not need to have the same partial derivative with respect to x, even at x=3. This is similar to what happens in space time.
You can take a snapshot in time of all space, but the world lines in a particular reference frame do not need to have the same slope, i.e. move through time at the same rate.
30 Jan 10
1 edit
Originally posted by KellyJayIf you could do that in fact, there would be a spectrum of time hacks where for instance, inside a black hole, the time flow might put that time hack 1 million years ahead of the same time hack on someone on Earth.
Time differs or the different conditions caused either the observer, or
devices being used to measure time to become altered? Can we say
that an exact point in time like "now" for example is the same
throughout all of the universe? If we were to freeze all of the universe
at a single point in time would it all stop at once, is there a now
everywhere at the same moment?
Kelly
Likewise if you sliced all the time up at once in the universe, the time hack on someone on the surface of the Earth would be different from someone sitting on Mars, which has about 1/3 Earth gravity.
A very tiny difference in that case but in fact measurable. That is why they have to have atomic clocks inside each GPS satellite, time flows slightly differently 300 miles up in space for several reasons, one being you are simply in a lower gravitational field, like if you were on the surface of the Earth and you weighed 100 Kg and you had a building that was about 4000 miles high, you would be at 2 radii from the center of the Earth, so the inverse square law says you would weigh 1/4 of your surface weight or 25 Kg.
Because you are in a lower gravitational attraction field up there your time would run slightly faster, certainly not at a 4 to 1 ratio but the difference is enough to ruin the calculations of position based on GPS readings which effected by variable gravitational fields and also by velocity.
Even though at 18,000 odd miles per hour which is an average velocity of satellites, that does not come even close to the speed of light where relativistic effects get serious.
Even so, the effects are enough to ruin position estimates on the earth, by serious amounts, some say GPS readings would be off as much as 5 kilometers if all of those time flow and velocity changes were not incorporated into the calculations of when a pulse leaving the satellite actually arrives at the GPS radio.
That is due to the fact that at the speed of light, even a tiny change in arrival times which is what GPS is ultimately based on, the changes are enough to seriously screw up your position measurement.
That is a very real world class of phenomena that can be easily measured. You can measure the difference in time flow of atomic clocks where one sits on the ground and a second clocked starting off totally synced to the first one now goes on an aircraft and simply by being say, 10,000 feet up, thus in a slightly lower gravitational field, the change can be measured which follows Einsteins equation as exactly as we can presently measure them.
All of that is proven science and you cannot make a usable GPS without taking that into account. But there are experiments ongoing to the fundamental question of whether time flowed at a different rate now V 13 billion years ago.
Most of the experiments done on say, lower frequency radiation coming off a nova V higher frequency stuff so far has shown no difference in arrival times which says something about the overall flow of time, saying that 13 billion years ago a second was a second here and there back in time.
That does not mean someone will show some small change that will still shake up the core of science and lead us in new directions. News at 11.
If you had two atomic clocks totally synced and put one on a 10,000 foot mountain it would run a tiny bit faster than the synced at ground level so the time hacks would all be different even at that level if you could freeze the universe at some point in time. You would have a graph where my time hack would not be in the same 'place' as the time hack on the mountain or the time hack of a spacecraft going half the speed of light or someone sitting on Mars, their time hacks would all be in different places on a time hack scale. It would be like taking a shotgun and putting a ruler on the ground where the pellets come back to earth, the ruler would show some of them coming at say, 1000 feet and others at 1200 feet and so forth, the ruler in this case being a time hack ruler in say nanoseconds per division or whatever.
If you froze the universe, I would be at one point on the ruler but my astronaut buddy would be at another point on the time ruler when time froze.
30 Jan 10
Originally posted by KellyJayI'm sure you can find some popular scientific book about relativity. Why don't you try and find out why we think we know?
I again ask you how do you know?
If now is the same every or can be the same everyone at once, when
it isn't the same it is because of what? Or do you think it is always
the same every where at once?
Kelly
31 Jan 10
Originally posted by jekeckelI don't see how it matters about rates.
[b]I again ask you how do you know?
Because of the theory of relativity.
[If now is the same every or can be the same everyone at once, when
it isn't the same it is because of what? Or do you think it is always
the same every where at once?[/b]
Consider that you could take a snapshot in R(3), say at x=3, and have a 2-dimensional y-z plane. T ...[text shortened]... ar reference frame do not need to have the same slope, i.e. move through time at the same rate.[/b]
At the same moment people could be moving through time space at
various rates, a snap shot of time will have them all where they are
at a single moment. The rates are just that, the rates they are moving
which has nothing to do with the time they are in, except that they are
moving through space a various rates. Time itself is simply the
marker of rate, I don't see how or why time itself has to change due
to any force being applied anywhere, only our ablity to grasp or
measure would come into play.
Kelly
31 Jan 10
1 edit
Originally posted by KazetNagorraWhy bother writing anything if all you have to say on a topic where your
I'm sure you can find some popular scientific book about relativity. Why don't you try and find out why we think we know?
opinion is being asked for is go read something? I mean seriously, at
least present a thought on the topic.
Kelly
31 Jan 10
Originally posted by sonhouseI don't believe in your hacks, I believe it may fit your belief system.
If you could do that in fact, there would be a spectrum of time hacks where for instance, inside a black hole, the time flow might put that time hack 1 million years ahead of the same time hack on someone on Earth.
Likewise if you sliced all the time up at once in the universe, the time hack on someone on the surface of the Earth would be different from ...[text shortened]... the ruler but my astronaut buddy would be at another point on the time ruler when time froze.
Why wouldn't a moment in time not be shared by all everywhere at the
sametime no matter where you are under any condition? Fast, slow,
large, small are all just sizes and rates, powerful forces as strong as
they are, do not change a moment they simply shift through the mass
and forces this universe has in it. I can see light and energy being
moved, bent, and other things, but time why would that be effected?
Kelly
31 Jan 10
Originally posted by KellyJayAre you saying GPS system satellites should not need to compensate for time shifts due to changes in gravitational force or velocity? Are you denying these things actually happen?
I don't believe in your hacks, I believe it may fit your belief system.
Why wouldn't a moment in time not be shared by all everywhere at the
sametime no matter where you are under any condition? Fast, slow,
large, small are all just sizes and rates, powerful forces as strong as
they are, do not change a moment they simply shift through the mass
and for ...[text shortened]... t and energy being
moved, bent, and other things, but time why would that be effected?
Kelly
31 Jan 10
Originally posted by KellyJayA snapshot of time will have them where they are. But your original question was about whether or not time is a constant. The rate at which time passes for different reference frames is different, so it is not constant.
I don't see how it matters about rates.
At the same moment people could be moving through time space at
various rates, a snap shot of time will have them all where they are
at a single moment. The rates are just that, the rates they are moving
which has nothing to do with the time they are in, except that they are
moving through space a various rates. ...[text shortened]... orce being applied anywhere, only our ablity to grasp or
measure would come into play.
Kelly
31 Jan 10
Originally posted by KellyJayThe force of gravity is a manifestation of the curvature of spacetime. Time is "changed" due to this curvature.
Fast, slow,
large, small are all just sizes and rates, powerful forces as strong as
they are, do not change a moment they simply shift through the mass
and forces this universe has in it. I can see light and energy being
moved, bent, and other things, but time why would that be effected?
Kelly