10 Nov 08
Originally posted by wormwoodNevertheless - even if you have solid evidence of a cheat you should tell the site authorities, not the forums. If you want to make a fuss, keep it anonymous: "I told the mods of a top 20 player who I am pretty certain is a cheat due to blah blah blah and nothing's been done." Is entirely within the rules of the site.
if the blatant cheats were banned in a swift manner, I'd fully concur with you. but they aren't. usually it takes some public noise to make the wheels finally turn.
After all this is the type of accusation which is difficult for someone who is falsely accused to prove their innocence of. Even if you have done thorough analysis then you are still going to encourage others who haven't to start naming people they don't like etc. Go through the proper procedure even if you are sure.
11 Nov 08
Originally posted by diskamylI hope you are right.
I don't think it's something of this sort. It's always a lot more difficult to identify cheating if the alleged player is in real life a very strong player.
If someone completely anonymous with a nickname consisting of capital letters and strange numbers, and Kasparov would come and play here, having proved his identity, and both use the exact cheating ...[text shortened]... would be a serious time interval between the banning of the two, which I find quite normal.
11 Nov 08
Originally posted by PolicestateIn every single case, bar one, when I have accused or implied that someone of being an engine user, he or she has subsequently been banned. The single exception is Weyerstrass.
Mr Weyerstrass is a proven master, who's games are in the public domain, and he loses regularly enough against equally proven opposition otb and on other sites.
I am not sure on what basis Korch, Fat Lady on others, who without wanting to get personal I must observe take paranoia about cheating to a whole new level in these forums, make these clear accusations (which I thought were against the TOS anyway)?
The simple fact is that there are people who cheat on every single online chess site around, and this one is no different. Over the last year or so I've come to realise that this site is one of the very few which tries to do something about it.
The reason I always make the accusations public is because nothing seems to be done otherwise (see wormwood's post above). However, I have to admit that several high profile cheats have been banned in recent months and I may no longer need to do this.
I agree that what I do is, strictly speaking, against the TOS of this site. However, I believe it is the lesser of two evils. If you can point to one post of mine where I accuse an innocent person of cheating, please do so.
11 Nov 08
Originally posted by DeepThoughtThe proper procedure has been followed regarding this user years ago. The evidence then was overwhelming and every analysis done since has duplicated the original evidence and results in dozens of games.
Nevertheless - even if you have solid evidence of a cheat you should tell the site authorities, not the forums. If you want to make a fuss, keep it anonymous: "I told the mods of a top 20 player who I am pretty certain is a cheat due to blah blah blah and nothing's been done." Is entirely within the rules of the site.
After all this is the type of ...[text shortened]... t naming people they don't like etc. Go through the proper procedure even if you are sure.
This is all down to "politics" now.
11 Nov 08
Originally posted by no1marauderPolitics?
The proper procedure has been followed regarding this user years ago. The evidence then was overwhelming and every analysis done since has duplicated the original evidence and results in dozens of games.
This is all down to "politics" now.
Can you elaborate on that?
11 Nov 08
1 edit
Originally posted by no1marauderIs
The proper procedure has been followed regarding this user years ago. The evidence then was overwhelming and every analysis done since has duplicated the original evidence and results in dozens of games.
This is all down to "politics" now.
Top 1 match ave = 63.9%
Top 2 match ave = 83.3%
Top 3 match ave = 90.8%
about the same as earlier results?
11 Nov 08
Originally posted by no1marauderEvery analysis? What analysis? This stuff isn't published - at least not here.
The proper procedure has been followed regarding this user years ago. The evidence then was overwhelming and every analysis done since has duplicated the original evidence and results in dozens of games.
This is all down to "politics" now.
I am not interested in hearing that you analysed x games and found a match up rate of y, This means zip. You have to demonstrate that the probability of a player of a similar standard would get the same match up rate is lower than some threshold value. Since the number of good moves in a position is on average pretty low (probably 2 or 3 depending - an assumption has to be that they are equally probable) you need a very high match up rate to hit a p-value (probability of getting the same result by chance) of 0.01or 0.05 or whatever you decide is the threshold for beyond reasonable doubt.
You also have to take into account that for the top 5 or so on the site it is rather difficult to get a control group to compare their match up rates with. There are also a number of other potential sources of bias you have to control for. An obvious one is the possibility of opening theory which the games mods are unaware of - basically you have to hope that the averaging procedure corrects for that. In the less obvious cases you would ideally get a player who is sufficiently strong to establish candidate moves (and show their preference) in a subset of games to ensure that your estimates of moves available per position are correct.
I assume (hope) that the games mods do their analysis using this kind of statistical rigor. Which of course takes time. Copious amounts of it; another poster in this thread, who had done some independent analysis of someone's games which they discussed with me using the pm system, told me that it takes 1.5 hours to get the basic statistics on a single game - never mind the subsequent stuff I'm talking about.
I strongly dispute your case that the "analysis has been done", at least with sufficient rigor for the site admins to proceed. Even if it has this is not the point. Throwing allegations around about specific players in the forums really does not help anyone. I seriously hope that Russ will not act against players because a few people want him to and I also hope that he will not fail to act when no one is pressuring him to.
I do not care about the specific outcome of this. My point in this post is that you have to be careful about statistical analysis, hacking around with a couple of dozen games is not sufficient. My general point is that it is against the rules of the site to accuse specific players of cheating in the public forums for reasons that have been discussed ad nauseam in other threads. The rights and wrongs of this particular case have nothing to do with that.
11 Nov 08
Originally posted by no1marauderPolitics meaning "Russ won't ban him"?
The proper procedure has been followed regarding this user years ago. The evidence then was overwhelming and every analysis done since has duplicated the original evidence and results in dozens of games.
This is all down to "politics" now.
I've gone around on this with Squelchbelch quite a bit, both recently and during the summer when this issue last surfaced. I contacted every game mod who could possibly have been involved with recommending a ban and not a single one knew of such a recommendation. No1, if you have a name...not of someone who heard something, but the actual game mod who recommended a ban that was disregarded, please let me know via PM. Otherwise, stop with this rumor.
As to these allegations, a number of the people involved here have been the subject of suspicions themselves. I've been told Korch had at least one very high matchup game submitted to fairplay and seen numerous other mentions of him being an engine. I've also been told there's no way No1 could have the rating he does and still have the USCF rating he maintains. I respond (privately) to those all of those accusations the same way I respond to this one...follow the process and keep it out of the damned forums! In the end, the TOS rule is really just about treating others with the dignity and respect we'd all want for ourselves under similar circumstances.
11 Nov 08
3 edits
Originally posted by IchibanovThere is difference between:
Politics meaning "Russ won't ban him"?
I've gone around on this with Squelchbelch quite a bit, both recently and during the summer when this issue last surfaced. I contacted every game mod who could possibly have been involved with recommending a ban and not a single one knew of such a recommendation. No1, if you have a name...not of someone who heard s rs with the dignity and respect we'd all want for ourselves under similar circumstances.
1) unbased accusations made by some obviously biased persons (with reputation of morons) showing obvious lack of chess knowledge + inability to detect cheats
and
2) based accusations made by persons who have showed their ability to detect cheats as most of persons they have been accused are banned now.
11 Nov 08
2 edits
Originally posted by KorchThere is also a difference between:
There is difference between:
1) unbased accusations made by some obviously biased persons (with reputation of morons) showing obvious lack of chess knowledge + inability to detect cheats
and
2) based accusations made by persons who have showed their ability to detect cheats as most of persons they have been accused are banned now.
1) Private accusations made to the site admins and/or game mod team via the approved channels, with supporting evidence (including your credentials as an individual who is able to spot such things).
and
2) Participation in public threads which clearly imply an accusation against a specific user.
I took a hiatus from this site several months back due to this nonsense being allowed to run rampant. I have reached the point now that I have decided to leave for good. I am very disappointed in this mob mentality having ruined (for me anyway) what I used to consider to be the best Chess site available.
And for the record, I have always in the past respected Korch but I leave here giving ICCF IM Ronald Weyerstrass my full support.
11 Nov 08
2 edits
Some of the members here are quite correct.
Accusations should not be made like this in the public forums.
Anyone who has any questions regarding the issues surrounding one member in particular can PM me and I will send them an MS Word document which should clarify matters somewhat.
Regards,
SB
11 Nov 08
Originally posted by Ichibanov1) From these which I know - definitely most of them.
1) Not all the people who spoke against you fall into the group(s) you're referencing.
2) The "correctness" of these open accusations isn't the question. It's the fairness of making them in the first place. Flaunting of the TOS is unacceptable, regardless of rating.
2) If you are so worried about violation of TOS itself I should ask why your objection is risen only when its turned against your clan mate? Similar actions have been many times and some of them managed by your clan ex-leader - all DUNE clan kept quiet then.
11 Nov 08
1 edit
Originally posted by Maxwell SmartIf not 2) then I`m for 100% sure that some very blatant "untouchable" users (like Seadevil) would not be banned.
There is also a difference between:
1) Private accusations made to the site admins and/or game mod team via the approved channels, with supporting evidence (including your credentials as an individual who is able to spot such things).
and
2) Participation in public threads which clearly imply an accusation against a specific user.
I took a ...[text shortened]... in the past respected Korch but I leave here giving ICCF IM Ronald Weyerstrass my full support.
I have lost any illusions about admins for a some time ago.
11 Nov 08
1 edit
Originally posted by KorchNow you are rationalizing your actions instead of facing the fact that wrong is wrong. If it is wrong to violate the TOS, then it is wrong to violate the TOS...you can't pick which portions of the TOS are to be followed, and which are to be ignored. You know the truth of this, anything else is simply an excuse.
If not 2) then I`m for 100% sure that some very blatant "untouchable" users (like Seadevil) would not be banned.