14 Dec 07
Originally posted by KaworukunActually computers underrating gambits (including Traxler).
Also people go on about what the computers thinks. Learn too play chess yourself without an engine. I play the Danish gambit a lot dispite the computer trashing it. (I can get a good game out of monst openings but not the Danish for some reason.)
14 Dec 07
Originally posted by KorchKNow how to get a good game out of the Danish?
Actually computers underrating gambits (including Traxler).
BTW heres a grandmaster Traxer game I played LOL
[Event "RHP Blitz rated"]
[Site "www.redhotpawn.com"]
[Date "2007.12.14"]
[Round "?"]
[White "dragonstarr369"]
[Black "Kaworukun"]
[Result "0-1"]
1. e2-e4 e7-e5 2. Ng1-f3 Nb8-c6 3. Bf1-c4 Ng8-f6 4. Nf3-g5 Bf8-c5 5. Bc4xf7 Ke8-e7 6. Bf7-c4 Rh8-f8 7. c2-c3 h7-h6 8. Ng5-f3 Nf6xe4 9. O-O d7-d5 10. Bc4-b3 Bc8-g4 11. d2-d4 e5xd4 12. c3xd4 Nc6xd4 13. Nb1-d2 Nd4xf3 14. Nd2xf3 Bg4xf3 15. Bb3xd5 Bf3xd1 16. Bd5xe4 Bd1-e2 17. Rf1-e1 Bc5xf2 0-1
14 Dec 07
Originally posted by KaworukunI dont play Danish, as black may avoid it after 1.e4 e5 d4 exd4 3.c3 playing 3...d5 with equal position.
KNow how to get a good game out of the Danish?
BTW heres a grandmaster Traxer game I played LOL
[Event "RHP Blitz rated"]
[Site "www.redhotpawn.com"]
[Date "2007.12.14"]
[Round "?"]
[White "dragonstarr369"]
[Black "Kaworukun"]
[Result "0-1"]
1. e2-e4 e7-e5 2. Ng1-f3 Nb8-c6 3. Bf1-c4 Ng8-f6 4. Nf3-g5 Bf8-c5 5. Bc4xf7 Ke8-e7 6. Bf7-c4 Rh8-f8 7 ...[text shortened]... d4xf3 14. Nd2xf3 Bg4xf3 15. Bb3xd5 Bf3xd1 16. Bd5xe4 Bd1-e2 17. Rf1-e1 Bc5xf2 0-1
14 Dec 07
Originally posted by KorchI'm really only making two points:
The "realities of GM chess" is practicality.
Main drawback of Traxler (from point of view of professional) is its impracticality - Many people does not play 1.e4 at all, people who plays 1.e4 usually prefer 3.Bb5 not 3.Bc4. After 3.Bc4 Nf6 many players prefer 4.d4 or 4.d3 instead of 4.Ng5. So possibility to play Traxler does not arise so often. If you c ...[text shortened]... t need to explain you that practicalness and soundness of opening/system/line is not the same?
1) The Traxler is probably tactically sound (i.e. not refuted by the tactical lines 5.Nxf7 and 5.d4) and certainly well playable up to a certain level.
2) The line 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bd5 is simply too favourable for white for the Traxler to be considered generally viable at higher levels (IM/GM).
I speak as someone who used to play the Traxler myself and had to admit (reluctantly) that the line given in 2) above was simply good for white.
14 Dec 07
Originally posted by Northern LadMaybe you are right that after 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bd5 white has some plus - that might be the reason why not to play it. When I`ll have more time I `ll try to study these line to check it out.
I'm really only making two points:
1) The Traxler is probably tactically sound (i.e. not refuted by the tactical lines 5.Nxf7 and 5.d4) and certainly well playable up to a certain level.
2) The line 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bd5 is simply too favourable for white for the Traxler to be considered generally viable at higher levels (IM/GM).
I speak as someone w ...[text shortened]... yself and had to admit (reluctantly) that the line given in 2) above was simply good for white.
I may agree about soundness/unsoundness of opening/line is opponent may show particular lines to base his point. But arguments like "its not sound because its not popular" is not acceptable for me.
14 Dec 07
2 edits
Playing into a KGA black is given a 1 pawn advantage on move 10.
Playing into the Bxf7+ variation of the Traxler, white is given somewhere between equality and a 0.62 advantage on move 10.
Here's the line I (as well as my engine) deem best for both sides, if you have an improvement or analysis post it.
1. e4, e5 2. Nf3, Nc6 3. Bc4, Nf6 4. Ng5, Bc5 5. Bxf7+, Ke7 6. Bb3 {Debatable, but in fritz's opening book}, Rf8 7. d3, d6 {1.00 Advantage for white} 8. Nf3 {Some black initiative and a slightly better position}, Qe8 9. Nc3, Bg4 10. h3, Qh5! {0.09 Advantage for white. Complete equality}.
This is the line I get on my engine (Fritz 5.32) when I let it play against itself. The line is ferociously tactical and even fritz has a hard time analyzing it.. starting out at a 0.97 advantage for white and dropping to a 0.09 advantage after about 10 seconds.
Does black have a better line? Not after 3. Nf6 although Bc5 is probably slightly safer for black.. though also far more drawing.
Okay Northern Lad... I've given an accurate line with engine analysis... your semi eloquent bumblings should at least be backed up with a refutation 🙂.
14 Dec 07
Originally posted by ih8sensYou need to re-read the Heisman quote from earlier.
Playing into a KGA black is given a 1 pawn advantage on move 10.
Playing into the Bxf7+ variation of the Traxler, white is given somewhere between equality and a 0.62 advantage on move 10.
Here's the line I (as well as my engine) deem best for both sides, if you have an improvement or analysis post it.
1. e4, e5 2. Nf3, Nc6 3. Bc4, Nf6 4. Ng5, Bc5 5 ...[text shortened]... e analysis... your semi eloquent bumblings should at least be backed up with a refutation 🙂.
He spent 2000 hours on the Traxler with Fritz.
14 Dec 07
1 edit
Originally posted by Squelchbelch1. I don't like basing my study in this opening on other people's ideas... it leads to an unrealistic bias which I have meticulously tried to avoid.
You need to re-read the Heisman quote from earlier.
He spent 2000 hours on the Traxler with Fritz.
2. 'Small but safe advantage' after Bxf2+ ... cmon 0.09 of a pawn isn't even an advantage... it's like 1/6th of a move.. too miniscule to count in such a tactical line. Heck white can have bigger advantages in mainline sicilians.
3. Even he hasn't said anything conclusively. No line was presented a deep as the one I just presented and I'm not sure his analysis can be fully trusted... 'proberbly' ... cmon.
The fact is, as mentioned in this thread, that engines cannot adequately analyze a gambit this wild fairly. And heismann himself didn't make any assertions either as I see.
Either way, I've probably spent a thousand hours or so on this opening too... if you count the nights I left my computer on studying Nxf7.. and reaching NO conclusion. 😛.
Don't trust GM's too much.. they miss 1 move mates too sometimes 🙂.
14 Dec 07
Originally posted by ih8sensThere is no point for the knight to retreat to f3 until h6 or Qg6.
Playing into a KGA black is given a 1 pawn advantage on move 10.
Playing into the Bxf7+ variation of the Traxler, white is given somewhere between equality and a 0.62 advantage on move 10.
Here's the line I (as well as my engine) deem best for both sides, if you have an improvement or analysis post it.
1. e4, e5 2. Nf3, Nc6 3. Bc4, Nf6 4. Ng5, Bc5 5 ...[text shortened]... tter position}, Qe8 9. Nc3, Bg4 10. h3, Qh5! {0.09 Advantage for white. Complete equality}.
Nc3 is bad, whereas Nbd2 allows for c3-d4 and provides support for the f3 knight.
However, quite a few very strong players and chess engines very likely won't find the best lines, and in the Bd5 line (which is far more common), the lines that are most promising for white are loaded with tactics.
15 Dec 07
1 edit
Originally posted by ih8sensPlease, please, please, can we forget frigging Fritz. I couldn't give a monkey's *** what's in its opening book. I've said enough times for the dimmest to understand: my comments on the Traxler are not based in any way, shape or form on Fritz or any other engine. Fact is 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bd5 leads to white advantage. Everything else is irrelevant.
Playing into a KGA black is given a 1 pawn advantage on move 10.
Playing into the Bxf7+ variation of the Traxler, white is given somewhere between equality and a 0.62 advantage on move 10.
Here's the line I (as well as my engine) deem best for both sides, if you have an improvement or analysis post it.
1. e4, e5 2. Nf3, Nc6 3. Bc4, Nf6 4. Ng5, Bc5 5 e analysis... your semi eloquent bumblings should at least be backed up with a refutation 🙂.
15 Dec 07
Originally posted by KorchI have never advanced the argument that "it's not sound because it's not popular". That would be absurd.
Maybe you are right that after 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bd5 white has some plus - that might be the reason why not to play it. When I`ll have more time I `ll try to study these line to check it out.
I may agree about soundness/unsoundness of opening/line is opponent may show particular lines to base his point. But arguments like "its not sound because its not popular" is not acceptable for me.
15 Dec 07
Originally posted by Northern LadFact is that 1. e4, c5 can lead to a white advantage too!
Please, please, please, can we forget frigging Fritz. I couldn't give a monkey's *** what's in its opening book. I've said enough times for the dimmest to understand: my comments on the Traxler are not based in any way, shape or form on Fritz or any other engine. Fact is 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bd5 leads to white advantage. Everything else is irrelevant.
The advantage after Bxf7+ and Bd5 is so minor that IT is irrelevant..
15 Dec 07
Originally posted by Northern LadNope leads too an advantage for black. he has more development, and a nice open file for his rook.
Please, please, please, can we forget frigging Fritz. I couldn't give a monkey's *** what's in its opening book. I've said enough times for the dimmest to understand: my comments on the Traxler are not based in any way, shape or form on Fritz or any other engine. Fact is 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bd5 leads to white advantage. Everything else is irrelevant.