Originally posted by PhySiQ1.)it opens the long diagonal for black. The black bishop can be unpinned. White unpins his bishop by Rg1.
Well Mr. Pacifique, thanks for taking a look at the game. I think with some more time invested you may agree with some of my comments and disagree with others. That's the fun in game annotations - proving the annotator wrong is an amazingly good feeling. Quite a few of my ideas I would say are incorrect, but not necessarily wrong.
1.)it opens the long the KG, perhaps irrefutable...but annoying in the same way to a player like me.
Q
9...Na5 is the move which opens diagonal for black bishop. This move was possible also before 9.Nf3, instead of 8...h6 for example.
[2.) The queen is defending d7 and f6 while pinned. White gets to play e4 freely and perhaps one sharp form is Qc2 with intentions of a4 and a later c pawn push.
How queen escapes from pin after 16.Ng4! (instead of 16.c4) ?
threat 17.e4 and 18.e5 seems to be very dangerous.
Also you did not answer my question which I`ll ask again - How White could attack your undefended c7 pawn?
3.) the threat of force is often better than force itself. My c pawn isn't gone so at some point it may become free. In this game it didn't happen that way. I don't like Qc7 much, maybe Qb8 would have been better.. at the time it was hard to choose one over the other. I was certainly hanging onto a possibility of still castling.
You claimed that you already had control over diagonal.
4.) Whites undisputed dark bishop and ability to take the b file early is enough counter-play for white. The removal of the dark bishop and non-opposition on the b file I think turned a draw into a loss. A pawns advantage is often not enough to win. (Quite often).
First of all - if you annotate game and give evaluations you should explain WHY its so. So you had to write your reasons to consider this position "drawish" before my question into your annotations.
Secondly - positions like this one where both sides needs to be accurate are not called "drawish".
And finally - actually I would like you to demonstrate "ability to take the b file" and strength of "undisputed dark bishop" after 23...Nxa3 (instead of 23...g6?!) 24.Rxg7 Rh7 25.Rxh7 Nxh7 - knight may return on b5 when needed and no control over b file anymore. White would have to fight hard for draw.
5.) I didn't like them.
Why? If you annotate game and claim that some move is "mandatory" then why can`t you demonstrate why other moves are worse? Especially in positions like this one.
Originally posted by Pacifique1.) 9... Na5 was advantageous after Nf3, not so much so beforehand. That's my opinion. Apparently yours is dissenting!
1.)it opens the long diagonal for black. The black bishop can be unpinned. White unpins his bishop by Rg1.
9...Na5 is the move which opens diagonal for black bishop. This move was possible also before 9.Nf3, instead of 8...h6 for example.
[2.) The queen is defending d7 and f6 while pinned. White gets to play e4 freely and perhaps one shar you demonstrate why other moves are worse? Especially in positions like this one.
2.) I hadn't considered Ng4. But I also didn't play Qd8 with absolute knowledge that I would be relieving the pin - only that I hoped I could. I thought it was better to try plan on playing c6 and Qc7 via Qd8 than keeping the queen on e7. Perhaps I was wrong? I'm not sure. You're over 2200 on this site - you tell me 🙂
3.) I don't claim that I had undisputed control over the diagonal. Only that I have the diagonal. I am on it, and have been allowed to play through my plans. I must not have been clear enough on this idea - it doesn't really matter anyway as I'm rather sure at this point that it was not the right idea. I just got lucky.
What would you have done instead?
4.) Maybe your Nxa3 is better. I'm not sure. I don't think black wants to lose the pawn on g7. Maybe its ok. That was my feeling in this position.... so was I wrong?
I think I can call a position drawish if there are solid drawing chances on the board. If you want to say its not because their is still some possibility of a win - then I suppose just the insufficient material endings fall into the "drawish" category. I don't find your criticism of this term valid.
Can you show me how black wins with accurate play after Na3? Our position made a difficult ending and my assessment was that white can get a draw out of it. If I'm wrong then educate me! I enjoy a well explained study! 😉
For white I think Be3 is part of the waste - along with that Bf4. It was on a fine square. a4 seemed more prudent to me.
I was worried about white playing Rb1 after a4:
As I said Nxa3 wasn't an option that I had seriously considered. I feld the g7 pawn needed to be corrected. White isn't dead in the water from controlling the b file even in this option... but it all depends on how black plays of course.
How might I continue? Well... looking at it now this is what comes to mind:
Q
Originally posted by PhySiQ1.) 9... Na5 was advantageous after Nf3, not so much so beforehand. That's my opinion. Apparently yours is dissenting!
1.) 9... Na5 was advantageous after Nf3, not so much so beforehand. That's my opinion. Apparently yours is dissenting!
2.) I hadn't considered Ng4. But I also didn't play Qd8 with absolute knowledge that I would be relieving the pin - only that I hoped I could. I thought it was better to try plan on playing c6 and Qc7 via Qd8 than keeping the queen on . Ra1 Nb5 25. Rxg7 Nh5 26. Rg2 f6 27. Nd3 Rb8 28. Rb2[/pgn]
Q
Red herring. This statement has nothing common with your main statement about 9.Nf3 opening diagonal. Without 9...Na5 diagonal would remain closed for Black.
2.) I hadn't considered Ng4.
Really? Its very natural move, for strong human at least. The most interesting is that engines don`t see it too and start to see problems for black only after 17.e4 is made.
I thought it was better to try plan on playing c6 and Qc7 via Qd8 than keeping the queen on e7. Perhaps I was wrong?
To be honest I have no idea what black can do to prevent Ng4-e4-e5 without giving back pawn at least. 13...hxg5 seems to be not so good idea I guess.
3.) I don't claim that I had undisputed control over the diagonal.
You claimed "only" that "I have the long diagonal (and pressure on h2)" 😀
I think I can call a position drawish if there are solid drawing chances on the board.
This position is complicated enough for making mistakes and for all three possible results. For humans at least. I bet even in modern ICCF game (when both players use engines) there would be much fight before draw agreement. So I refuse to believe that any strong player would call "drawish" positions like this.
Can you show me how black wins with accurate play after Na3?
Can you show where I claimed that black should win?
For white I think Be3 is part of the waste - along with that Bf4. It was on a fine square. a4 seemed more prudent to me. 23. a4 Nxd4 24. Be3 c5 25. Rxc5 d6 26. Nxf7 Nxf3+ 27. Ke2 Kxf7 28. Rc7+ Kf8 29. Kxf3
29...Ne8 30.Rxa7 Rxa7 31.Bxa7 Rh3+
white can choose which pawn to give up - a4 (32.Kf4 Ra3) or h2 (32.Rg3 Rxh2). in both lines white should be able for a long and tenacious defence and I`m not sure if black can`t win it anyway.
As I said Nxa3 wasn't an option that I had seriously considered. I feld the g7 pawn needed to be corrected. White isn't dead in the water from controlling the b file even in this option... but it all depends on how black plays of course. 23. Be3 Nxa3 24. Ra1 Nb5 25. Rxg7 Nh5 26. Rg2 f6 27. Nd3 Rb8 28. Rb2
Position after 27.Nd3
Could you explain what`s the idea of 27...Rb8? Why not 27...a5 for example?
03 Mar 12
1 edit
Originally posted by PacifiqueSo Mr. Pacifique the general undertone of your post is that you think I'm using a box. So why not just accuse me of it instead of leading on your exhaustive questioning? Nearly all of our discussion has been a matter of opinion.
1.) 9... Na5 was advantageous after Nf3, not so much so beforehand. That's my opinion. Apparently yours is dissenting!
Red herring. This statement has nothing common with your main statement about 9.Nf3 opening diagonal. Without 9...Na5 diagonal would remain closed for Black.
2.) I hadn't considered Ng4.
Really? Its very natura 27[/fen]
Could you explain what`s the idea of 27...Rb8? Why not 27...a5 for example?
What is this red herring? I've never heard this term thrown around before. I feel that Nf3 makes ...Na5 a logical move to open the diagonal for black and that it will lead to losing the c pawn.
Rb8 was exemplary of our discussions on the b file. I'm sure their is not anything wrong with a5. With good strong analysis it may be determined to be the most correct direction.
Finally I'm confused at what you're trying to say. I don't alledge to be a strong player. Perhaps I'm near the expert class. Perhaps I'm not. I'd have to go back to club play to find out these days. I'm not a strong player. If your accusing me of being a box - then come out and say it. Most of these accusations are at least couple with some concrete analysis rather than just dissenting opinions on difficult positions.
Q
Originally posted by PhySiQWe have some progress at least - you don`t call these positions "drawish" any more. 😵
So Mr. Pacifique the general undertone of your post is that you think I'm using a box. So why not just accuse me of it instead of leading on your exhaustive questioning? Nearly all of our discussion has been a matter of opinion.
What is this red herring? I've never heard this term thrown around before. I feel that Nf3 makes ...Na5 a logical move to ope ...[text shortened]... concrete analysis rather than just dissenting opinions on difficult positions.
Q
I`m glad to see that you understood me very well. 😉 At least I hope this will make you think twice before posting "wanna sound knowledgeable" crap in your annotations.
03 Mar 12
Originally posted by PacifiqueQuite to the contrary. You have me very confused. I still stand by my original thoughts. Whether I was wrong or not doesn't bother me - it will just leave me with things to work on. (Nothing you have posted would make me lean either way)
We have some progress at least - you don`t call these positions "drawish" any more. 😵
I`m glad to see that you understood me very well. 😉 At least I hope this will make you think twice before posting "wanna sound knowledgeable" crap in your annotations.
Perhaps you'll learn not to beat around the bush anymore. I don't try to sound knowledgeable at all. I even stated before I annotated my game that these positions are not my cup of tea. So you'll need to find some other player or some other game to piss on. There wasn't anything here.
I wonder why you're the only whistle blower?
P.S. I'd probably buy you a beer anyway.
Q
03 Mar 12
Originally posted by PhySiQDo you think your annotations in Morgski and Q thread are much better?
Quite to the contrary. You have me very confused. I still stand by my original thoughts. Whether I was wrong or not doesn't bother me - it will just leave me with things to work on. (Nothing you have posted would make me lean either way)
Perhaps you'll learn not to beat around the bush anymore. I don't try to sound knowledgeable at all. I even stated ...[text shortened]... nder why you're the only whistle blower?
P.S. I'd probably buy you a beer anyway.
Q
03 Mar 12
Originally posted by PacifiqueCould you explain what`s the idea of 27...Rb8? Why not 27...a5 for example?
1.) 9... Na5 was advantageous after Nf3, not so much so beforehand. That's my opinion. Apparently yours is dissenting!
Red herring. This statement has nothing common with your main statement about 9.Nf3 opening diagonal. Without 9...Na5 diagonal would remain closed for Black.
2.) I hadn't considered Ng4.
Really? Its very natura ...[text shortened]... 27[/fen]
Could you explain what`s the idea of 27...Rb8? Why not 27...a5 for example?
ummm because rooks belong on open files, for goodness sake, Jeremy Silman in his
preface to one of his books states that even a six year old girl learned this. Yet is
seems to have evaded you!
Originally posted by robbie carrobie27...Rb8 is typical box move in similar positions. b-file is not open due to knight on b5. Could you find the plan for black how to make progress after 28.Rb2 for example?
Could you explain what`s the idea of 27...Rb8? Why not 27...a5 for example?
ummm because rooks belong on open files, for goodness sake, Jeremy Silman in his
preface to one of his books states that even a six year old girl learned this. Yet is
seems to have evaded you!
03 Mar 12
Originally posted by robbie carrobieJeremy Silman, being an International Master wouldn't recommend 27...Rb8 in that position I dont think. All it does is waste a tempo because he doesnt even own the file after 28.Rb2. General rules dont always apply to every position.
Could you explain what`s the idea of 27...Rb8? Why not 27...a5 for example?
ummm because rooks belong on open files, for goodness sake, Jeremy Silman in his
preface to one of his books states that even a six year old girl learned this. Yet is
seems to have evaded you!
Originally posted by luke mysterHere is the position from Morgski and Q's game after 27...Rb8, and Silman would not
Jeremy Silman, being an International Master wouldn't recommend 27...Rb8 in that position I dont think. All it does is waste a tempo because he doesnt even own the file after 28.Rb2. General rules dont always apply to every position.
advocate putting his Rook, on an open file in this position, its practically the only move
...a5 does nothing, its a waste of time.
Originally posted by Pacifiqueno its not its practically the only move that does something in the position, you should
27...Rb8 is typical box move in similar positions. b-file is not open due to knight on b5. Could you find the plan for black how to make progress after 28.Rb2 for example?
publicly apologise to Q for your scurrilous behaviour! what are you talking about the
file is not open, here is the very position from the actual game after 27...Rb8, there is
no knight on b5.
plans do not need to be elaborate, simply controlling the file in an undisputed manner is
a goal in itself, i resent your accusations.
03 Mar 12
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI believe this is the discussed position:
no its not its practically the only move that does something in the position, you should
publicly apologise to Q for your scurrilous behaviour! what are you talking about the
file is not open, here is the very position from the actual game after 27...Rb8, there is
no knight on b5.
[fen]1r2k2r/p2p1p2/2pnp3/8/P2PPN2/5P2/6RP/2R1K3 w k - 0 28[/ ...[text shortened]... y controlling the file in an undisputed manner is
a goal in itself, i resent your accusations.