Originally posted by Mephisto2Well, I still disagree with your logic. If you read the FIDE rules, you'll find that there IS a stipulation.
see my example above. As soon as white touches the pawn, the pawn will disappear from b7 and the resulting position is checkmate, no matter what follows. I don't see the stipulation that the move must be completed (because there is no such stipulation), it is enough that the move will be legal and that the position is checkmate.
Seen a massive dispute involving this situation.
White pushed a pawn to the 8th and grabbed a Queen at the side of
the board - he dropped it - by the time he picked he it up his flag fell.
He lost on time because the move was not completed.
There was a contoller present and he upheld the win.
The move is not completed until the promoted piece is placed
on the board (and the clock stopped).
In the above example there is no need to stop the clock because
the game is finished - checkmate. But the promoted piece must
be placed on the board to complete the checkmate. It's the rules.
You cannot put a pawn on 8th rank and say 'Queen' as you have just
created an illegal position - you must put a promoted piece on the
promoted square.
That is practically word for word what was told to me by an International
Arbiter.
Originally posted by Mephisto2Let's say, in this example:
see my example above. As soon as white touches the pawn, the pawn will disappear from b7 and the resulting position is checkmate, no matter what follows. I don't see the stipulation that the move must be completed (because there is no such stipulation), it is enough that the move will be legal and that the position is checkmate.
White has the move, and in his hurry to beat the time control, grabs the b7 pawn and fumbles it, dropping it on the floor. His flag falls while he's picking it up, and he does not see it. When he comes up, he frantically grabs a Queen and puts it...on c8.
Does the move still produce checkmate, in spite of what followed?
Originally posted by Mephisto2If this is true, which ist isn't, then you can castle by only move the king, and because the rook will abolutely follow, then you actually don't have to?
Of course, in this case it matters how the promotion is done. But I was referring to positions where it doesn't matter. For instance:
[fen]B6K/1P6/8/8/8/8/7p/6bk w - - 0 0[/fen]
My interpretation is that touching the pawn on b7 is enough to end the game, according to FIDE rules.
Or when you don't have mmore than one move, then you can hit the clock immediately, because the only move is anyway the obvious one?
No, a move is not completed before it is completed. If you don't complete the move, and you hit the clock, then it is a illegal move, with a punishment in accordance.
Originally posted by greenpawn34What if you already have a Queen on the board? Do you have to madly hunt around the tournament hall and steal one from another table before your flag falls?
Seen a massive dispute involving this situation.
White pushed a pawn to the 8th and grabbed a Queen at the side of
the board - he dropped it - by the time he picked he it up his flag fell.
He lost on time because the move was not completed.
There was a contoller present and he upheld the win.
The move is not completed until the promoted piece is ...[text shortened]... uare.
That is practically word for word what was told to me by an International
Arbiter.
Originally posted by SwissGambitThat situation is covered by FIDE Article 6.13.b - A player may stop the clocks only in order to seek the arbiter's assistance, for instance when promotion has taken place and the piece required is not available.
What if you already have a Queen on the board? Do you have to madly hunt around the tournament hall and steal one from another table before your flag falls?
I once saw Jacob Aagaard in a an allegro game allow his opponent
an upside down Rook - but as soon as it moved like a Queen -
he jokingly said "No" he had chosen a Rook and placed it upside down
on the board. So it was a Rook!
The good natured game finished in a draw but apparently Jacob
was correct. His opponent (who already had a Queen) should have stopped
the clocks and found another Queen.
promotion of pawn rules are and always were clear-the pawn is to be moved onto the promotion square and exchanged for the piece requested by the player promoting the pawn. The pawn is then removed from the square and the requested piece is placed on the vacant square. When completed as above and the player removes hand from the promoted piece the move is thus completed.Whether or not this move results in check or checkmate by another of the same players pieces,is not relevant to the manner in which promotion of pawns is to be conducted. If the players flag falls before the entire move is completed,,the promoting players loses the game------
Originally posted by SwissGambitWell, in the same reasoning, I'd say yes, he has won:
Let's say, in this example:
[fen]B6K/1P6/8/8/8/8/7p/6bk[/fen]
White has the move, and in his hurry to beat the time control, grabs the b7 pawn and fumbles it, dropping it on the floor. His flag falls while he's picking it up, and he does not see it. When he comes up, he frantically grabs a Queen and puts it...on [b]c8.
Does the move still produce checkmate, in spite of what followed?[/b]
From FIDE laws:
6.8 During the game each player, having made his move on the chessboard, shall stop his own clock and start his opponent`s clock. A player must always be allowed to stop his clock. His move is not considered to have been completed until he has done so, unless the move that was made ends the game.
The last part of the article is very clear, no?
Originally posted by MrHandA upside down rook is still a rook, even if you say it is a queen.
Are upside down rooks allowed in FIDE in lieu of a proper queen?
Some put a coin and say 'queen', however, by the rules of FIDE, it is only a coin, not a queen.
A good advice is to find a queen in good time before a promotion.
Originally posted by Mephisto2Yes, the language is clear, but I reach the opposite conclusion. A move is not MADE until it is completed. That means all aspects of it are completed. If it's castling, the King and Rook must be on the proper squares. If it's promotion, the new piece must be on the board, and the pawn removed.
Well, in the same reasoning, I'd say yes, he has won:
From FIDE laws:
6.8 During the game each player, having made his move on the chessboard, shall stop his own clock and start his opponent`s clock. A player must always be allowed to stop his clock. His move is not considered to have been completed until he has done so, unless the move that was made ends the game.
The last part of the article is very clear, no?
And the move, whatever it was, should be legal. A game should not be won by an illegal move. [I doubt the FIDE rules will say otherwise; even if they do, that would only mean that they need to be changed.]
Originally posted by SwissGambitLet's agree to disagree, and I would certainly do the same as you do in real life situations, the question here was just where is the borderline. As said before, this is like a discussion about the gender of angels, lol. My point was simply: why is it necessary to complete a move, or stop your clock when the game is over before that? The difference in interpretation is that I don't find any word in the FIDE laws that says that checkmate cannot occur before the end of a move (and that part about the clock is a clear example of that).
Yes, the language is clear, but I reach the opposite conclusion. A move is not MADE until it is completed. That means all aspects of it are completed. If it's castling, the King and Rook must be on the proper squares. If it's promotion, the new piece must be on the board, and the pawn removed.
And the move, whatever it was, should be legal. A game sh ...[text shortened]... rules will say otherwise; even if they do, that would only mean that they need to be changed.]