Originally posted by Paul Leggett
How did white move into this position? This is a great retrograde problem-like position.

White's last moves were c3 and before that Nc3-b1 and before that Kb1-a1, etc. I don't think SwissGambit will be including it in his puzzle set anytime soon. 🙂

Originally posted by Varenka
[fen]7k/8/8/8/p1p5/PpPp4/RP1P4/KN6[/fen]

White to move, so stalemate. Remove the rule about the king being able to move into check. And it's still stalemate.

[b]You can say that zugzwang and stalemate are the same but for this one single little chess rule.

My example proves that to be incorrect.[/b]

Ha - just like I expected 🙂

I love how you keep defending that they are completely different as if your life depends on it. I'm perfectly aware that there are probably examples that show otherwise, like you did.

Still, you can't deny that you can easily find connections between the two, like I did.
This one example doesn't remove them altogether. I think thinking about it is probably more important than which exact point is correct and which one isn't.

New statement, partly based on Varenka's (unlikely) stalemate position:
Stalemate and zugzwang are the exact opposite.

Zugzwang is when you can move but don't want to.
Stalemate is when you want to move but can't.

P.S: @Paul, it would've been possible if white's last move was c2-c3, when before that the rook marched to a2, king to a1, and finally the knight from c3. Black's last move could've been any pawn/king move then, I suppose.

P.P.S: above P.S. was too late...

P.P.P.S: of course my above statement is immediately opposed by other examples of stalemate. Which implies that stalemate and zugzwang, while opposites, are the same, although different, very similar. Someone going crazy already?

Originally posted by davaniel
P.P.P.S: of course my above statement is immediately opposed by other examples of stalemate. Which implies that stalemate and zugzwang, while opposites, are the same, although different, very similar. Someone going crazy already?

thanks, is fine. went crazy long before this thread...

Originally posted by davaniel
New statement, partly based on Varenka's (unlikely) stalemate position:
Stalemate and zugzwang are the exact opposite.

Zugzwang is when you can move but don't want to.
Stalemate is when you want to move but can't.

Now we're distinguishing between "zugzwang", "likely stalemate" and "unlikely stalemate"... 🙂



In what way does Black *want* to move but can't? Could he get better than a draw if he could move? Why does he want to move?

Originally posted by Varenka
Now we're distinguishing between "zugzwang", "likely stalemate" and "unlikely stalemate"... 🙂

[fen]7k/4NK2/5N2/8/8/8/8/8[/fen]

In what way does Black *want* to move but can't? Could he get better than a draw if he could move? Why does he want to move?

See the P.P.P.S. in my above post (maybe my edit was too late, for some reason RHP was slow just at that moment). Of course black doesn't want to move here.

I also realized there are probably enough more probable examples where it's a stalemate when the king can't 'move into check'. Hence the PPPS.