20 Dec 09
Originally posted by Nowakowskifirstly Capas chess fundamentals, at least the copy i have, is in descriptive notation, therefore, little baby beginner, will have to learn, on top of the way the pieces move, tactical motifs etc etc etc a different form of notation, thirdly giving an advanced course to a bigger, as in the Dvoretsky book, is preposterous proposal. Thirdly the question was for a single volume, not two.
The poster is in the 1500's, and after looking over some of his games briefly, I think
an analysis workbook would probably suit him very well.
Capablanca's chess fundamentals, while a small book, can easily teach players to stop
all of the bad habits they have at the "1100" level. Moving through Capa's endings at the
end of the book, and finishing ...[text shortened]... me of his books, but he breads
the very best chess minds through his teachings.
-GIN
20 Dec 09
Originally posted by Nowakowskito be honest, I hadn't realized he was already 1500, and I don't have that particular book, but have almost all other dvoretsky books (10 -ten-, to be precise), I studied portions of several of them seriously and I know the guy. He is just impossible for a beginner. If he went through a complete and sudden change and wrote a book for class C players or beginners, I take my words back, but I really, really doubt it.
The poster is in the 1500's, and after looking over some of his games briefly, I think
an analysis workbook would probably suit him very well.
Capablanca's chess fundamentals, while a small book, can easily teach players to stop
all of the bad habits they have at the "1100" level. Moving through Capa's endings at the
end of the book, and finishing ...[text shortened]... me of his books, but he breads
the very best chess minds through his teachings.
-GIN
20 Dec 09
Originally posted by philidor positionyeah.... I agree.. it's a bit too advanced for me anyways..
to be honest, I hadn't realized he was already 1500, and I don't have that particular book, but have almost all other dvoretsky books (10 -ten-, to be precise), I studied portions of several of them seriously and I know the guy. He is just impossible for a beginner. If he went through a complete and sudden change and wrote a book for class C players or beginners, I take my words back, but I really, really doubt it.
21 Dec 09
1 edit
Originally posted by philidor positionIts a good one. It was compiled with the intention of teaching a player how to analyze
to be honest, I hadn't realized he was already 1500, and I don't have that particular book, but have almost all other dvoretsky books (10 -ten-, to be precise), I studied portions of several of them seriously and I know the guy. He is just impossible for a beginner. If he went through a complete and sudden change and wrote a book for class C players or beginners, I take my words back, but I really, really doubt it.
his own positions. Its a subtle build up, but it gets more and more difficult.
You can check amazon or some other site with reviews on the book, you'll see many
players whom are trying to jump from say 1600 and 1800 to that 2000+ level
You'll also see some players reviewing it at higher levels, but for the most part you'll be
astonished at how simple Dvoretsky finally made a book. Yes its still full of some of the
very best analysis, but its more simplified, and the more studious types will find this
book exceptional. True enough, you can still break your head on his analysis, which
I'm sure will be true of all of his books. However, this is as lamen as Dvoretsky can
be, and therefore I say its worth a mention.
I find no book which covers all of the original posts theory which hasn't already been
mentioned. The Mammoth book of chess fits the bill very very well (as GP34 said),
I would say Dvoretsky's Analytical guide would also be a good supplement for any
player taking on a chess diet like the one aforementioned.
-GIN
21 Dec 09
1 edit
Originally posted by robbie carrobieFirst: learning descriptive notation, is a must for any advancing player. Any. Period.
firstly Capas chess fundamentals, at least the copy i have, is in descriptive notation, therefore, little baby beginner, will have to learn, on top of the way the pieces move, tactical motifs etc etc etc a different form of notation, thirdly giving an advanced course to a bigger, as in the Dvoretsky book, is preposterous proposal. Thirdly the question was for a single volume, not two.
Disregarding descriptive notation, is absurd. Many modern masters, still choose to
analyze the board in this way, and with good reason. There are many parts of learning
the board, and the game, descriptive notation (for anyone having already become very
comfortable with it) provides a unique organization of the board and increases vision.
(I use second as it really is your second point...although you insist to have two
"Thirdly" points of thesis?) Second: The book spans from intermediate to advanced. Really this
should be enough said... Intermediate's looking for a strong fundamental structure?
Well here is the greatest creator of good chess habits ever. The thread originator is not
playing at "beginner" strength.
Thirdly (A second time?): It was for a single volume, fair enough. Capa's chess
fundamentals is a volume for any beginning player, where our poster is not, so he
may not need to read Capa's fundamentals. However, brush up with this book is
never a bad idea.
Both volumes are wonderful books, its too bad you'd be so willing to disregard them
based on what you've heard of the authors. Or, what you may think of the player
suggesting them. Silly.
-GIN
21 Dec 09
Originally posted by Nowakowskiok, let us be quite clear, i am not disregarding them based on what anyone says, i am disregarding them for a beginner. Its simply a preposterous statement to make, 'yeah i am learning the rudiments of chess', 'wow get a Dvoretsky book, that will really help'.!
First: learning descriptive notation, is a must for any advancing player. Any. Period.
Disregarding descriptive notation, is absurd. Many modern masters, still choose to
analyze the board in this way, and with good reason. There are many parts of learning
the board, and the game, descriptive notation (for anyone having already become very
comfort ...[text shortened]... the authors. Or, what you may think of the player
suggesting them. Silly.
-GIN
Give it up Gin, were not buying the recommendation, for as has been stated by players who are not beginners, philidor position (1900+), orion25 (1700+), Maxacre42(1850+), that for them, Dvoretsky is difficult. how then will an absolute beginner benefit if even these experienced players have difficulty.
Lastly the assumption has been made that this is for Bill himself, a player rated 1500s. Hardly a beginner, is it? correct me if i am wrong, but beginners are rated from 800 to 1400, is it not the case?
21 Dec 09
Originally posted by robbie carrobieNo player so far has shown any knowledge of the book in question.
ok, let us be quite clear, i am not disregarding them based on what anyone says, i am disregarding them for a beginner. Its simply a preposterous statement to make, 'yeah i am learning the rudiments of chess', 'wow get a Dvoretsky book, that will really help'.!
Give it up Gin, were not buying the recommendation, for as has been stated by player ...[text shortened]... it? correct me if i am wrong, but beginners are rated from 800 to 1400, is it not the case?
It is difficult, in places, as I've already conceded. It is also very worthwhile.
It was also recommended with intention of having Bill read it.
You may wish to attack the recommendation, but your attack is base-less and illegitimate.
You won't suck me into quarreling with you over the semantic value of the word "Beginner" either.
Dvoretsky is a great author.
Dvoretsky's books create great chess players.
Dvoretsky himself, alongside countless players, call this his most approachable work.
Enough said.
-GIN
21 Dec 09
1 edit
Originally posted by Nowakowskiyour absolutely right Gin, how silly of me to try to point out your deficiency, next time i am asked by the local primary school to oversee some chess lessons for ten and eleven year olds, ill ask them to order copies of Dvoretsky book, and stand back and watch them beginners grasp the principles, after some lessons on how the rook moves, how the knight moves and how the bishop moves, naturally!
No player so far has shown any knowledge of the book in question.
It is difficult, in places, as I've already conceded. It is also very worthwhile.
It was also recommended with intention of having Bill read it.
You may wish to attack the recommendation, but your attack is base-less and illegitimate.
You won't suck me into quarreling with you ountless players, call this his most approachable work.
Enough said.
-GIN
21 Dec 09
1 edit
Originally posted by robbie carrobieMy recommendation was sound for the posting party.
your absolutely right Gin, how silly of me to try to point out your deficiency, next time i am asked by the local primary school to oversee some chess lessons for ten and eleven year olds, ill ask them to order copies of Dvoretsky book, and stand back and watch them beginners grasp the principles, after some lessons on how the rook moves, how the knight moves and how the bishop moves, naturally!
My recommendation for 11 year olds in school, would be to not have a teacher with such
built up hostilities. Also a teacher with patience, whom doesn't disregard unstudied
books.
I would not recommend any book to an 11 year old.
Thats not the same as disregarding the principles in the book. Which in a
few years time, would become gem's to these young players.
Maybe you should follow the pandolfini road, but either road runs the same course...
(a classical chess education)
Maybe you should pick up the book and then you'll be able to teach the youngsters
something other than what the horsies do.
-GIN
21 Dec 09
Originally posted by Nowakowskithank you very much Gin, i would be much obliged if you refrained from getting personal, if you please, otherwise i shall be forced to tell your Dad and have you grounded!
My recommendation was sound for the posting party.
My recommendation for 11 year olds in school, would be to not have a teacher with such
built up hostilities. Also a teacher with patience, whom doesn't disregard unstudied
books.
I would not recommend any book to an 11 year old.
Thats not the same as disregarding the principles in the bo ...[text shortened]... n you'll be able to teach the youngsters
something other than what the horsies do.
-GIN
21 Dec 09
The free Mammoth has gone to a worthy home.
Dvoretsky...Hmmm....OK but he does presume the reader
has prior knowledge. He's good for the club player wishing to
improve but for the home and casual player I don't think he
plugs all the gaps.
Reinfeld and Chernev give the reader the feeling that they too
can play like this. Dvoretsky writes for players who know they
have to put the work in to play like that.
I don't think, and this is just my opinion, that he has the
gift that Reinfeld and Chernev had for putting across their
love of the game to a beginner.
His real art starts when he has good already comitted players
to teach. This is where his best stuff is.
21 Dec 09
6 edits
Originally posted by robbie carrobieYou can feel free to let him know.
thank you very much Gin, i would be much obliged if you refrained from getting personal, if you please, otherwise i shall be forced to tell your Dad and have you grounded!
I'm sure the beatings will continue until morale improves.
I ground myself pretty constantly it seems like now-a-days. 🙂
As for personal, I've said nothing personal, only true. I really would recommend some
more level headed personnel to be dealing with youngsters.
I really would recommend you pick up the book before you discard it.
I really know you would learn from it.
But, you'll duck, you'll dodge, you'll squirm, you'll say I'm "dumb".
You'll say I'm "Wrong". You'll say the book is not good for "Youngsters" "Beginners"
and every other demographic you can think of. Interestingly enough, the book, all
the while, will hold gems of chess knowledge. These gems are available to you, me,
and even Mr. Bill. However, you'll throw it away, because its easier to say no, its
easier just "Not to".
The easy way out will keep you right where your at.
An intermediate player (around Bill's rating) could gain greatly from Dvoretsky, or
any well known ending training system. That includes this sites PCT.
This book is not just an ending training system. Its much more, but then that escapes you
as you don't seem to know the books contents. 🙂 This book fits well with the original
posts need for content. It answers questions that players thirsty for knowledge have.
Is Purdy's magic of analysis also useless for intermediate players?
They touch on many similar concepts.
EDIT:ADD: Mr. GP34, I agree with you 🙂 A dedicated player. Not just a Good player. A dedicated one!
My recommendation, which still stands, was for bill (who seems dedicated enough by
his time here, and games played). Thanks for your clarifying voice! 😀
-GIN
21 Dec 09
Originally posted by Nowakowskiget back home to your momma!
You can feel free to let him know.
I'm sure the beatings will continue until morale improves.
I ground myself pretty constantly it seems like now-a-days. 🙂
As for personal, I've said nothing personal, only true. I really would recommend some
more level headed personnel to be dealing with youngsters.
I really would recommend you pick up th ...[text shortened]... e here, and games played). Thanks for your clarifying voice! 😀
-GIN