12 Feb 11
1 edit
This is from a fun little game I played here. (Game 8129433)
From my analysis, the fastest forced mate for black is after nine moves on his behalf, but please correct me if you find a faster line.
It's not a particularly difficult mate to think through because of so many forced moves, but it's kind of a fun "chase" mate.
Black to move.
Edit: feel free to post your solutions, but if you could "hide" them, that'd be great.
12 Feb 11
Originally posted by wittywonkawould anyone care to summarize this 'forced' mate concept from the position wonka has shown? Just asking for benefit of chess amateurs like me since it would appear to us that all mates are forced...6 moves from his game link and 4 moves in Mephisto's solution both of which are faster than an estimated 9 by wonka himself... O_O
[b]This is from a fun little game I played here. (Game 8129433)
From my analysis, the fastest forced mate for black is after nine moves on his behalf, but please correct me if you find a faster line.
12 Feb 11
1 edit
Originally posted by Iere manThe mate in 9 that wonka is talking about I presume is taking the six move in-game mate, and playing g4 instead of g3, and Qe1+ somewhere in there to lengthen the game. I believe that wonka overlooked the variation that mephisto pointed out, which indeed is the fastest.
would anyone care to summarize this 'forced' mate concept from the position wonka has shown? Just asking for benefit of chess amateurs like me since it would appear to us that all mates are forced...6 moves from his game link and 4 moves in Mephisto's solution both of which are faster than an estimated 9 by wonka himself... O_O
12 Feb 11
Originally posted by range blastsok I see now, it's simply chess teminology and a 'worst case scenario' type of estimation\assumption thingy...thx range...
The mate in 9 that wonka is talking about I presume is taking the six move in-game mate, and playing g4 instead of g3, and Qe1+ somewhere in there to lengthen the game. I believe that wonka overlooked the variation that mephisto pointed out, which indeed is the fastest.
13 Feb 11
1 edit
Originally posted by Mephisto2Fair enough. Thanks for pointing that out. 🙂
You don't need 9 moves.
[hidden]mate in four: 1. ... Qe5+ 2.Kd1 (Kf1 Qe1 mate) Nf2+ 3.Kc2 Qf5+ 4. d3 (Kc3 Qd3 mate) Qxd3 mate[/hidden]
I felt like 9 moves was a bit extreme, but I couldn't find the shorter mate when I was playing, and I just went with what would still work for me. But I do indeed stand corrected.
14 Feb 11
Originally posted by Iere manThe "forced" part of a forced mate may seem semantic, but the idea behind using the word "forced" is literary shorthand for "assuming the defending player plays the best moves or at least does not blunder and make it easier than it should be".
would anyone care to summarize this 'forced' mate concept from the position wonka has shown? Just asking for benefit of chess amateurs like me since it would appear to us that all mates are forced...6 moves from his game link and 4 moves in Mephisto's solution both of which are faster than an estimated 9 by wonka himself... O_O
The idea is that, from the position, the defender cannot prevent mate even with the best moves.
The alternative is sometimes called a "helpmate", and it really can refer to any position where there is an immediate mate if the defender makes a mistake.
When someone is looking for a "forced" mate, they are looking for a sequence that does not depend on a blunder from the defender.
Paul
14 Feb 11
Originally posted by wittywonkaLooking back at it, I considered the posted mate-in-four but didn't realize my bishop was covering white's escape on the b-file.
Fair enough. Thanks for pointing that out. 🙂
I felt like 9 moves was a bit extreme, but I couldn't find the shorter mate when I was playing, and I just went with what would still work for me. But I do indeed stand corrected.