11 Nov 12
3 edits
Originally posted by jcmessyAt first glance, I thought black was clearly better, but once I try concrete ideas, I end up with nothing to show for it.
White to move.
Is win possible for black here?
[fen]8/8/4k3/p1r4P/3pp1P1/R7/P3K3/8 --- w[/fen]
Game: Game 9248319
I think the root of the problem is that the black rook looks superficially well-posted, but it's not. It's really locked into a pseudo-defensive/passive position where it leaves a weakness behind whenever it moves. If it had the ability to move to the g- or h-file (behind the white pawns after they have advanced) and create some active threats, it would be much better, but that's easier said than done.
I've been trying ideas where black lets the white kingside pawns run, holds them with the king, and then slides the rook to the kingside behind the advanced white pawns to attempt to alternate threats against the pawns and also the white king, but white gets to move as well, and I have nothing foolproof yet.
12 Nov 12
4 edits
Originally posted by jcmessyI think a win for Black is possible, but I don't know if it can be forced at this point. This diagram is after 50.Kd2 of your game.
White to move.
Is win possible for black here?
[fen]8/8/4k3/p1r4P/3pp1P1/R7/P3K3/8 --- w[/fen]
Game: Game 9248319
My first thought was to move 50...e3+, but after 51.Kd3 Re5 52. Ke2 the advance of the pawns are stopped. However, 50...Kf6 first puts the black King in a better position in case of 51.h6 and also threatens 51...Kg5 attacking the g-pawn that might draw the white Rook over to the King side. It is also a good waiting move, which sometimes is better than to try to force a move
P.S. To make this clear: One example is 50...Kf6 51.h6 e3+ 52.Kd3 Re5 53. Ke2 Kg6 54.Rd3 Re4 55.g5 Rh4 56.Rd1 Kf5 57.Kd3 Kxg5 etc.
- Joined
- 26 Aug 11
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12 Nov 12
Your whole line after 51.h6? is correct.
But White has 51.Rh3!! which again gives White another whole line of fighting counterplay
with an approximately equal chance at the end of long variation.
Game # Game 9248319
12 Nov 12
Originally posted by jcmessyWhat do you play after 51.Rh3!! e3+?
Your whole line after 51.h6? is correct.
But White has 51.Rh3!! which again gives White another whole line of fighting counterplay
with an approximately equal chance at the end of long variation.
[fen]8/8/5k2/p1r4P/3pp1P1/7R/P2K4/8 -- b[/fen]
Game # Game 9248319
12 Nov 12
Originally posted by jcmessyThen 52...Ke5 protects the d4 pawn and threatens 53...Rc3+
After 51..e3; 52.Kd3
[fen]8/8/5k2/p1r4P/3p2P1/3Kp2R/P7/8 -- b[/fen]
Game# Game 9248319
- Joined
- 26 Aug 11
- Moves
- 10242
12 Nov 12
I see where you coming from. I overlook that simple reply..
The alternatives:
(A.) 53.g5 Rc3; 54.Ke2 d3; 55.Kxe3 d2+ wins the Rook @ h3.
(B.) 53.h6 Rc3; 54.Ke2 d3+ 55.Kf3 d2; 56.Rh1 Rc1-+
(C.) 53. Rh1 Rc3+ 54.Ke2 Ke4+-
So; therefore this is the last try of defense for White.
52. Ke2
Game: Game 9248319
12 Nov 12
3 edits
Originally posted by jcmessyI think the obvious move would then be 52...Rc2+ and if 53.Kd1 Rc3 threatening 54...e2+ winning the h3 Rook. Then if 54.Ke2 d3+ or 54.Ke1 Ke5 and Ke4 to protect the e3 pawn in preparation for d3.
I see where you coming from. I overlook that simple reply..
The alternatives:
(A.) 53.g5 Rc3; 54.Ke2 d3; 55.Kxe3 d2+ wins the Rook @ h3.
(B.) 53.h6 Rc3; 54.Ke2 d3+ 55.Kf3 d2; 56.Rh1 Rc1-+
(C.) 53. Rh1 Rc3+ 54.Ke2 Ke4+-
So; therefore this is the last try of defense for White.
52. Ke2
[fen]8/8/5k2/p1r4P/3p2P1/4p2R/P3K3/8 -- b[/fen]
Game: Game 9248319
- Joined
- 26 Aug 11
- Moves
- 10242
13 Nov 12
RJHinds, I think I posted a wrong diagram.
Below is the last position after 50.Rh3 Kf6; 51.h6
now it's black to move...
Game 9248319
13 Nov 12
8 edits
Originally posted by jcmessyI was going by your actual game up to move 50.Kd2 as I pointed out in my previous post.
RJHinds, I think I posted a wrong diagram.
Below is the last position after 50.Rh3 Kf6; 51.h6
now it's black to move...
[fen]8/8/5k1P/p1r5/3pp1P1/7R/P3K3/8 -- b[/fen]
Game 9248319
Then I recommened You play 50...Kf6 for Black, so the following is the way the game would have went up to your 51.Rh3! for White.
Therefore, the following is the position I was analyzing
Your revised diagram has two extra moves for White without Black making a move as I see it.