Originally posted by RahimKI'm totally with Rahim on this. I agree that poker is very different in spirit that chess, even though both may be found similar when you try to boil it down technically.
I told you already. What we consider gambling is up to us basically.
Times change, beliefs change.
Intellect plays a huge part in our religion. Not everything is written out in religion. You have to use your brain on certain issues.
I consider poker gambling because of the reason I mention and chess is not gambling. This is my opinion.
Beyond an occassional kids game, poker has little entertainment value without the added ingredient of the "love of money". It is hard to love poker without loving money. Chess may involve prize money from time to time, but most players get nothing more than a token amount from time to time, amazingly small for the amount of effort invovled.
I've tinkered around with slot machines in Las Vegas, and it is easy to get caught up in greed and love for money. The slots can be highly entertaining as a result. But try playing essentially the same game on a $10 PC program, without the hope of striking it rich and the game is boring. So you know that activity is kthrives only because of your love for money. I've choosen to stay away from such things from now on for that very reason.
Of course one could try to split hairs to prove my distinction is not adequate, but if we're discussing this for religious reasons, why is it hard to imagine that God would want us to discern activities by their spirit (in an abstract sense) rather than some highly technical criteria? We expect no less from our own kids.
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesDon't get me wrong. I have played poker online for fun. I see nothing wrong with that. I'm talking about playing poker for money.
I see. Well, I guess you're right. If you ever change religions and start playing poker, let me know where.
I quit playing online because it wasn't as fun as watching people on tv and i'm sure in real life it's way more funner but that I would never play.
Playing online also tempts you to playing in real tournaments so that's another reason I stopped playing it for fun online.
Originally posted by RahimKso its ok to watch people gamble? 🙂
Don't get me wrong. I have played poker online for fun. I see nothing wrong with that. I'm talking about playing poker for money.
I quit playing online because it wasn't as fun as watching people on tv and i'm sure in real life it's way more funner but that I would never play.
Playing online also tempts you to playing in real tournaments so that's another reason I stopped playing it for fun online.
I think the problem here is drawing the line between competition and gambling, which are two very different things.
You can gamble with chess just as much as you can with any game. Approach an opponent you know nothing about (you don't know their rating, you've never analyzed their previous games, etc.), claim you can beat him for a specified amount of money, and you have a gamble. Even grounds with even material has nothing to do with it because you're gambling that your knowledge/experience of the game is better than his knowledge/experience. It's not about the even material of the pieces in the starting position; it's about the minds behind the pieces.
Organized competition is a different thing though, which is part of the Rahim's original question. A poker tournament isn't gambling, neither is a chess tournament. The fee to enter a tournament is there for a reason. You pay money to support the tournament and support the prize money, otherwise everything comes out of the pockets of the tournament organizers. And as we know, nothing is free in this world. So officially speaking, any game tournament (with an entrance fee and prize money) shouldn't be considered gambling.
However, when a competitor asks himself the question, "Is the prize money worth the entrance fee when I have x amount chances to win?" then maybe in this question can the essence of gambling be found. If Rahim is really asking because, as was mentioned, his religion forbids gambling, the essence of gambling is what's important - not whether it's officialy considered gambling on paper. The reason why gambling would be forbidden in a religion is because gambling and greed often tread the same lines, so that's really what he should be looking for.
Originally posted by RahimKbut most of the people on tv have reached the money stages, what about the people who lost their money but didn't get on tv? by watching the money people and giving the tv company valuable ratings and you're exploiting the ones who lost their money to make this entertainment. would that not be wrong?
Of course if it's on TV 🙂 If they want to be dumb and waste their hard earned money then let them.
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesheh, that would be some tournament 🙂
Is a slot machine tournament gambling?
Just stick in a "Generally speaking..." before that statement, as I don't mean to vigorously include any and all game tournaments. I was just trying to illustrate a point behind tournament entrance fees vs. gambling.
In "Casino" and "Horse Racing" gambling, a person spends money to win money.
1) How is that different than spending money in chess for a
tournament to actually be "allowed" to receive a monetary
or non-monetary prize?
If you did not spend the full price to enter a World Open or North American Open tournament, would you still be able to receive the an "unadjusted" Prize Money Value for the category entered?
What is the goal of your tournament play?
2) Is it to simply have a new rating or is it to win money or a
non money prize?
Is Casino and Horse racing gambling, a person has little or no control over the outcome of his or her performance. A person throwing dice
may try to purposefully throw the dice in a certain way, but after that
other factors take over. In chess the most control we have is over ourselves, and even then we are "mistake makers." Even Grandmasters of chess, which are the best players, make mistakes.
3) What "Control" does an individual player really have over the
outcome of his or her game? Can we control our mistakes
after we make them? Can we control another person playing
against us?
Personally, I can see that paying money to enter a chess tournament in order to win money or a non-money prize, is still gambling. I have though about that issue on my own, and if I do enter a tournament, I would either have to ask for exclusion from "the prize value" AND ask if I can have a reduced entry fee or just not enter the tournament.
Lastlly, I have paid $3.00 to enter a local tournament but there is NO prize for winning the tournament except personal satisfaction in accomplising 1st place. These kind of tournaments are enjoyable to me.
Originally posted by trevor33I pay for TV and I will watch what I want to. Why feel any emotions, it's just TV. It's there to entertain me, I could less about the people on tv, except sport athletes and other exceptions, but generally I could careless. It's mostly fake or acting.
but most of the people on tv have reached the money stages, what about the people who lost their money but didn't get on tv? by watching the money people and giving the tv company valuable ratings and you're exploiting the ones who lost their money to make this entertainment. would that not be wrong?
Originally posted by KingOnPointInteresting arguement.
In "Casino" and "Horse Racing" gambling, a person spends money to win money.
1) How is that different than spending money in chess for a
tournament to actually be "allowed" to receive a monetary
or non-monetary prize?
If you did not spend the full price to enter a World Open or North American Open tournament, would you still be ...[text shortened]... faction in accomplising 1st place. These kind of tournaments are enjoyable to me.
This is my opinion on what gambling is:
If you have no control over the outcome then it's gambling.
If you do have control over the outcome it's not gambling.
In chess you have control. If you lose it's your own fault. If you aren't as good as your opponent, that's your fault also. But you have control.
Thus chess is not gambling to me. I'm not talking about going up to someone and betting him money on the game. I'm talking about entering tourneys with entry fees and then prizes.