Originally posted by greenpawn34Your argument about inability to beat engines can be used against your "anti-engine" tirades, because if I can't beat engines it means that I have something to learn from them.
Typical of you lot.
Dodge the question because you don't like the answer.
So far you have compared Fritz12 to CM5000, Motor Cycles, girl tennis
players and now opening analysis of the 80's.
Beetle.
I can see by looking at games played today and games from the 80's
that there has been an improvement.
Here we have a program that none of us ...[text shortened]... e
serious over the chessboard encounters.
FRITZ helps you to find friends......😕
To say nothing about your speculations about Fritz 12 not being better than Fritz 11.
Hi Cimon.
I suppose the only way to prove Fritz 12 is better than Fritz 11 is for
one of you lot to buy and play it at a 12 game match.
But to justify the makers claims then the score will have to be
12-0 in favour of F12.
Don't come back saying you don't get that score human v human
(unless Fischer is playing).
We are talking about box v box.
They claim it much stonger and faster than F11.
If you think getting beat by a box helps you improve then good for you.
All I can say on that matter how are you going to master the skill
of 'swindling' if your success rate is zilch?
So my case still is:
Why is getting beat by another box any better for you if you cannot
beat the 'weaker' version.
Remember by claiming F12 is better than F11 then by their own
definition f11 is the weaker model.
Originally posted by greenpawn34Have you heard that engines can be used to analyse games?
Hi Cimon.
I suppose the only way to prove Fritz 12 is better than Fritz 11 is for
one of you lot to buy and play it at a 12 game match.
But to justify the makers claims then the score will have to be
12-0 in favour of F12.
Don't come back saying you don't get that score human v human
(unless Fischer is playing).
We are talking about box ...[text shortened]... by claiming F12 is better than F11 then by their own
definition f11 is the weaker model.
Can't you figure out that it's possible to compare analysis made by F11 and F12?
Hi Cimon
Let them both analyse this Game 5229133
You see we would need to give them rather complex positions
to look at positions beyond human compreshension.
(if not then what's the point).
So again I ask - How do we know that one is better than the other
and if we 'the avgerage slob chess player' cannot beat the 'weaker'
one at chess or out-analyse it.
Example:
We give them the same position and say 10 minutes and look ahead
6 moves..
F11 says +1.08
F12 says +1.09
We would then have to sift through the millions of variations to see
if there was an error. We don't know - we simply don't know.
So an F11 v F12 match is the only way.
And 12-0 is the only result to back up their claims.
I still cannot fathom why anyone who has a computer program
they cannot beat wants another one they cannot beat. Why?
Originally posted by greenpawn34you are wasting your and everybody else's time. it's impossible to make you appreciate a reasonable point. you were the same in the "chess" thread too. it's sad really.
I still cannot fathom why anyone who has a computer program
they cannot beat wants another one they cannot beat. Why?
....to make you appreciate a reasonable point.
And the resonable point is?
Nobody has given me any reasonable point.
And stooping to insults is not helping.
Am I not entitled to ask a valid question?
I think it's too close to home and I've hit a raw nerve.
Buy another version of the thing - who cares.
Actually I've been sitting waiting for one of my opponents to turn up
and makes some moves - have a position teeming with traps
want to see if I can sneak him into a blitz game.
No joy there. But as always been fun here.
Greenpawn 1 MUGS 0
Originally posted by Cimoncompare against what? f10? how could you possibly know which one gave the best analysis? what do you compare it against?
Can't you figure out that it's possible to compare analysis made by F11 and F12?
engine vs. engine games can't solve the issue:
lets assume f11 was stronger than f12, in some abstract and absolute chess theoretical way. then lets assume that in certain restricted type of games, a subset of All Chess, f12 was stronger. furthermore, lets assume engine vs. engine play was such a special case where the weaker engine actually performs better.
now, the question is, how to prove this isn't true? should we rely on the human intuition on which engine feels stronger, the same human judgment that's regarded as inferior to modern engines? is f12 better than f11 because 12 is a bigger number?
software marketing is filled with inferiorly performing newer versions, which only get faster after a year or two of optimization, if at all. in fact that's more a rule than an exception. all of them use up more resources though, so older machines run them unoptimally. so if someone updates his fritz, it's not all that obvious that his old harware can run it as well as the older fritz.
at least f11 goes to eleven.
Originally posted by Mad Rookthat's probably the best selling point for fritz.
If you enjoy playing on the Playchess server, the cost of a new version of Fritz isn't much more than a 1-year subscription to the server. So for just a little more than the price of a subscription, you get access to the server for a year, and you get an updated Fritz version, usually with some new bells & whistles. (And ideally, some of those new features ...[text shortened]... arketing.
BTW, I'm not a huge Chessbase fan. The last Fritz version I bought was Fritz 8.
although, you can also by older ones much cheaper, and still score the 1 year subscription.
Originally posted by greenpawn34OK. I see that I'm wasting my time with narrow-minded patzer who has zero knowledge about making analysis with engine. Have a nice evening.
Hi Cimon
Let them both analyse this Game 5229133
You see we would need to give them rather complex positions
to look at positions beyond human compreshension.
(if not then what's the point).
So again I ask - How do we know that one is better than the other
and if we 'the avgerage slob chess player' cannot beat the 'weaker'
one at che ...[text shortened]... ne who has a computer program
they cannot beat wants another one they cannot beat. Why?
Greenpawn is - quite obviously - looking for a deeper philosophical reason behind the existance of Fritz 12, and I must say that I quite agree with the points he makes. Maybe it will find the position after 1. e4 to be +0.20 instead of Fritz 11's +0.14. Does it really matter? Does it change the position in any way?
Like I want an explanation for chess in the other thread 🙁
Originally posted by Diet CokeIt's happened so much, that if practice makes perfect, getting it handed to me is my best practical chance at perfection. My only crack at it, you could say. But who would have thought that perfection could come from being the butt of a joke. A little too cheeky, perhaps.
Not afraid of getting your ass handed to you I see.😉
And would that make me the perfect @$$? Better minds than I will determine that...in the end.
Paul
Originally posted by wormwoodDid I recommend engine v.engine games?
compare against what? f10? how could you possibly know which one gave the best analysis? what do you compare it against?
engine vs. engine games can't solve the issue:
lets assume f11 was stronger than f12, in some abstract and absolute chess theoretical way. then lets assume that in certain restricted type of games, a subset of All Chess, f12 at his old harware can run it as well as the older fritz.
at least f11 goes to eleven.
I have compared analysis of the same position with different engines. When their evaluation differs, I compare the lines they have given to understand where their analysis don't match. And then usually it's possible to find out the move which one of them underrated or overrated. It's better can be showed in practice than explained.
Originally posted by heinzkatThere are positions in which evaluation of different engines differs much more than 0.14 and 0.20 (in my opinion - insignificant difference). Also you must not trust to these numbers, as they tend to be misleading - looking at particular lines is much more useful.
Greenpawn is - quite obviously - looking for a deeper philosophical reason behind the existance of Fritz 12, and I must say that I quite agree with the points he makes. Maybe it will find the position after 1. e4 to be +0.20 instead of Fritz 11's +0.14. Does it really matter? Does it change the position in any way?
Like I want an explanation for chess in the other thread 🙁