10 Dec 09
Originally posted by robbie carrobieno true english player gives up his light squared bishop for anything else than an exchange, that is nearly an offence!!! nearly... I would sugest instead develpment or not even playing the queen to b3 in the first place, but play b4, gaining some space, preparing to fienchetto the dark squared bishop as well.
hi orion25, there is a greatly instructive game, where white in fact played a3
because he thought that it as a very safe move, and indeed white wins a pawn,
however, black gets great compensation for that pawn , for whites idea of Qb3 is
almost superficial because after white tries to win the pawn, his white squares
around his king are left very ...[text shortened]... 5 cxd5 12. Qxd5, white has won a pawn, but is it a pawn
you would want to take?
Later rook to c1 and then Qb3 and white has a great position. What do you think?
10 Dec 09
let me add, the english is all about masked potential. Usually what we english players try to do is keep the game seem equal the whole time while actually, underneath, we are plotting surprises like hell. English players have to know some basic things (and so do their oponents): many times it is said that it is a dull positional opening, but what it is all about restraint, counter-punching, holding tension, and masked attacks. Also english players have to be very curagious: material isn't worth what it normally is, the english bishop is worth nearly as much as a rook and isn't tradable for small advantages, pawn sacrifices at both sides (though not that common) are always interesting, and of course, the tematic rook-sac on c6 as illustrated below by botvinnik (thouhg normally for a knight). It is interesting how white always seems to have a good file for his rooks, b or c file depending on the oponents play, and how well this generally coordinates with the english bishop. Ok, here is my personal favorite english game, notice how the 57 year old Botvinnik still has the guts to play the english like it should be played.
now bear all this in mind when playing against the English...
10 Dec 09
4 edits
Originally posted by orion25hi, eventually i found that game i was looking for, here it is , Suba v Nikolic,
no true english player gives up his light squared bishop for anything else than an exchange, that is nearly an offence!!! nearly... I would sugest instead develpment or not even playing the queen to b3 in the first place, but play b4, gaining some space, preparing to fienchetto the dark squared bishop as well.
Later rook to c1 and then Qb3 and white has a great position. What do you think?
in which Suba tried the idea, a3, Rb1 and trying for the pawn push b4. What is
brilliant about Nicolic play is that he realises that he cannot prevent this, and instead
retreats his knight to e7 and threatens to punch through in the centre. Suba
realising this tries to prevent it, but Nicolic does it anyway with the preparatory
move c6. check it out!
Suba v Nikolic, 1985
Suba goes pawn grabbing and gets in big trouble!
10 Dec 09
5 edits
Originally posted by orion25i think instantly opening up the diagonal for whites Kings bishop must be positionally suspect.
let me add, the english is all about masked potential. Usually what we english players try to do is keep the game seem equal the whole time while actually, underneath, we are plotting surprises like hell. English players have to know some basic things (and so do their oponents): many times it is said that it is a dull positional opening, but what it is all a /pgn]
now bear all this in mind when playing against the English...
perhaps we can play to keep the position closed, and attack the fianchettoed bishop,
but to open the position so early is dangerous i think. Botvinniks play was absolutely outstanding,
unbelievable in fact!
here is the system that i think is most effective against the English, if white does not
play an early a3, is this, threatening to double the pawns. i t looks like a kind Nimzo
Indian, but i never play that so i cannot say for sure, however the threat to double
the pawns must be taken seriously, for if white tries to prevent it he loses time in
developing his King side, if he does not try to prevent it, well Blacks lead in
development and attacking chances are certainly compensation enough for any club
player. Having two bishops is one thing, knowing how to use them quite another.
11 Dec 09
1 edit
Originally posted by robbie carrobieyes that is a good game, very well played by Nikolic, and a nice example of how easy one can go wrong in the english if he isn't precise in his first moves. It seems to me, without much analisis that white went wrong with 10.e4, probably not counting on c6 as a reply, I think instead he should have continued with his plan, play b4, and wait for black to take a clear stance. (also after black plays c6 I personally like the move c5 very much, to prevent the push d5 taking e.p. if tried, though I reckon this is a very dubious move, and probably not very sound as well as it eases control over d5 itself).
hi, eventually i found that game i was looking for, here it is , Suba v Nikolic,
in which Suba tried the idea, a3, Rb1 and trying for the pawn push b4. What is
brilliant about Nicolic play is that he realises that he cannot prevent this, and instead
retreats his knight to e7 and threatens to punch through in the centre. Suba
realising this tri 0-1[/pgn]
Suba goes pawn grabbing and gets in big trouble!
11 Dec 09
2 edits
Originally posted by robbie carrobieYes, keeping the position closed is one mighty alternative, though you might run into Botvinnik sistem (c4 d3 e4) wich is generally very powerfull on either side of the board (not only the traditional queenside thus).
i think instantly opening up the diagonal for whites Kings bishop must be positionally suspect.
perhaps we can play to keep the position closed, and attack the fianchettoed bishop,
but to open the position so early is dangerous i think. Botvinniks play was absolutely outstanding,
unbelievable in fact!
[fen]r1bqk2r/pppp2pp/2n2n2/4pp2/1bP5 ...[text shortened]... h for any club
player. Having two bishops is one thing, knowing how to use them quite another.
I've never actually played against that system you sugest, not with f5 in at least, so I don't know how that would interfere with my general apreciation of the position. Normally I'm quite glad when my oponents play Bb4. Note that the knight is not pinned, and thus the control over d4 remains the same. In the posion you give I would imidiatly play b3, forcing the exchange. I personally actually like those doubled pawns very much, for two main reasons: first I get my nice b-file, 2nd, I achieve nice control over the problematic d4 square with a pawn, preventing any knights from coming in, and freeing the e-pawn, so I might try the botvinnik sistem.
This position is what I would aim for (notice how white has the oportunity to play e4, wich is harder than normally due to the f5-pawn, and has the oportunity to use the b-file to good ends):
(ok, I admit, its more equal than I thought, I'm a bit stuck with how to aproach that f5-pawn, it seems we would be in for a good game in this position)
11 Dec 09
2 edits
this is brilliant stuff Orion, more than i could have hoped for from players of the
English opening, thanks! anyhow, there is a rather brilliant grandmaster who plays
the black side of this line, Ildar Ibragimov. In this instance, he plays in a type of
Nimsovitch style, completely closing down white bishops, until he has an active
knight against a very passive bishop. i agree that this is not to every ones taste, in
fact, i loath games like that, because i have very little positional understanding and
dont really know how to use pawns, never the less its very instructive for those who
do. secondly what else shall black do with his bishop? if he posts it to c5, as did
Fisher, then its easy to see that it shall get kicked around from whites pawns, , after
moves like e3, a3 and b4. The only real alternative is to exchange it and to try to
shut out whites bishops, although i am open to suggestions
Barcenilla v Ibragimov, 2002
11 Dec 09
Originally posted by robbie carrobiethis f5-variation of the english is giving me great trouble. My natural
this is brilliant stuff Orion, more than i could have hoped for from players of the
English opening, thanks! anyhow, there is a rather brilliant grandmaster who plays
the black side of this line, Ildar Ibragimov. In this instance, he plays in a type of
Nimsovitch style, completely closing down white bishops, until he has an active
knight agai ...[text shortened]... 1 Ba4 64. Bd2 Nh5 65. Kf2 Bc2 66. Be1 Bb1 67. a3 Bc2 0-1[/pgn]
tendency would be to try some botvinniksystem-like pawn structure.
this would be vey beautifull and all, but the f5 pawn imidiatly disrupts
this whole formation, and therefore e4 can't be played as I had
hoped, especially if Bb4 has been played.
Still, I believe Bb4 is not that good as a position like
is favourable for white (in my opinion). Of course, as noted,
blacks try to lock the english bishop is his best alternative, in this
line, though black still must watch for 2 important positional
aspects of the locked game: 1.white has a semi open file for
his rooks, and can use/sacrifice his a-pawn to open up the
position more, 2.white's b3 pawn is very strong as it avoids
advanced outposts for the knights on b4 and d4. I would sugest
for black to try and open some lines on the kingside, or, as in
the shown game, disrupt white's centre-pawn configuration with
quick pawn-infiltrations.
11 Dec 09
Originally posted by robbie carrobieyou can also either play Bg7, for some extra centre-control (perhaps play the symetricall or the KID) or play Be7, with some nice kingside ideias (alias, that is the main alternative to defeating the english: either close, or attack the king)
what else can black do with his bishop
11 Dec 09
Originally posted by orion25hey somebody should have told me that when I played the english 🙂
let me add, the english is all about masked potential. Usually what we english players try to do is keep the game seem equal the whole time while actually, underneath, we are plotting surprises like hell.
11 Dec 09
Originally posted by philidor positionwell yes, you are partly right of course, the real action only happens late in the middle game. Still your plan must come from the beggining or your pieces just won't coordinate.
I have to admit, I think there wasn't much action going on till the late middle game. At least the way I played it. Maybe it's because I didn't understand it well.
11 Dec 09
1 edit
Originally posted by orion25by the way, I looked at your post with the pgn and I have to say, the way you play it, it's chess. the way I played it, it was something different, it was the english to the core 🙂.
well yes, you are partly right of course, the real action only happens late in the middle game. Still your plan must come from the beggining or your pieces just won't coordinate.
to elaborate, I played strictly 2.g3 lines and had a -one response only- repertoire, and it wasn't the smartest choice to adopt it, I kept being a total stranger to normal chess, even to d4 openings.
Now I've switched to a Kramnik repertoire and I'm much happier and more enthusiastic about following GM tournaments.
11 Dec 09
Originally posted by robbie carrobieWhat was the level of the players? Even I would have seen a dead queen there.
hi orion25, there is a greatly instructive game, where white in fact played a3
because he thought that it as a very safe move, and indeed white wins a pawn,
however, black gets great compensation for that pawn , for whites idea of Qb3 is
almost superficial because after white tries to win the pawn, his white squares
around his king are left very ...[text shortened]... 5 cxd5 12. Qxd5, white has won a pawn, but is it a pawn
you would want to take?