Cheats and their Victims

Right now, the banned players lose all active games. AFAIK there didn't use to be any rating change with these, but now there is. So far so good.

Rectifying the past is also desirable but there are ramifications. There are several forms:

1) Reset tournament winners (final round only)
2) Reset clan match wins
3) Reset ratings
4) others?

I'd want to see the easiest of these attempted first - which looks like tournament winners. I'm not as familiar with clan matches, I'm not sure how easy this would be.

I'm actually not in favor of retroactive ratings adjustments for individual games as I think the complications aren't worth it. In any case, it ought be the last thing attempted.

Originally posted by greenpawn34
quote:
".....because they were lucky enough to get matched with a
cheater in a tournament,"

What is lucky about playing a game of chess in which you have
no chance of winning. Some have paid money to get a clean game
of chess. They have been cheated....[b]CHEATED.

They must get the result reversed and the rating points.[/b]

Consider yourself furtunate if being cheated in a chess game is all that happens to you in this life. It might be too much time and trouble to adjust the rateings involved.

Originally posted by gambit3
Consider yourself furtunate if being cheated in a chess game is all that happens to you in this life. It might be too much time and trouble to adjust the rateings involved.

greenpawn34 has already stated that he is married, so clearly being cheated in a chess game is not the worst thing that has happened to him.

Originally posted by greenpawn34
I think anybody banned should have [b]all their wins and draws
turned to losses and recaluculated rating points giving to their opponents.

It the very least the site boffins can do.

(if a case arrives where a known cheat has played another known cheat
then the result is void - see I have thought this out).

They have the list of opponents a ...[text shortened]... I got a point or am I just ranting because it's Monday morning
and I have a minor hang-over.[/b]

I need your address so I can send you your portion of the monetary renumeration. Thanx.

Originally posted by greenpawn34
I think anybody banned should have [b]all their wins and draws
turned to losses and recaluculated rating points giving to their opponents.

It the very least the site boffins can do.

(if a case arrives where a known cheat has played another known cheat
then the result is void - see I have thought this out).

They have the list of opponents a ...[text shortened]... I got a point or am I just ranting because it's Monday morning
and I have a minor hang-over.[/b]

I think a retrograde rates adjustment is absolutely pointless. If I lost 16 points last year, it doesn't mean my rating should be 16 points higher today. My rating today is what it should be according to my performance. As a player under rated by 16 points last year, I would have earned more for my next few wins and lost less for my next few losses. After just a few games, my rating would be back at what it should be.

As for converting wins to losses, that could be a bit bamboozling as you look at a game where white is obviously in a mating position, but black has won the game.

A separate stat would be preferable, IMHO, but I don't see Russ introducing a "Games lost to banned cheats: " stat in our profiles.

D

While ratings do have some purpose it's not worth the effort,imo.
The real damage done by cheating; kicking legit players out of tournaments/win tournaments,cannot be rectified.So I say just leave it at a ban.

Looks like the vote is 50-50 - will post something on Site Ideas Forum.
Perhaps suggested No1.’s idea all results void.

One last try from another angle.

The cheating player used a computer to make his moves .
These beasts are very strong these days and can take down GM’s.

The injured party lost grading points because his opponent.cheated,
therefore his grade should have been higher than what is
and this may have had an affect on what tournaments he could and could not participate in.

On another thread it was agreed by all one way to improve was to play better players.

In this case our victim has been refused from playing in a tournament
with better players because his grade is deemed too low because he was
unlucky enough to have met a cheat.

So by not allowing this player to have his grade adjusted you are infact denying
that players right to play against stronger players and thus preventing him from
becoming a better player.

Why not just make all cheater's games unrated games so players who played cheater did not get affected in ratings.

Anyway, I am curious, how can one tell between a cheater and a very good player? Does not the very good player match most of the computer's moves?
I remember someone once accusing Kramnik of cheating because he had a 95-98% match with computers.

Originally posted by zin23
Why not just make all cheater's games unrated games so players who played cheater did not get affected in ratings.

Anyway, I am curious, how can one tell between a cheater and a very good player? Does not the very good player match most of the computer's moves?
I remember someone once accusing Kramnik of cheating because he had a 95-98% match with computers.

Who says he wasn't cheating?

http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3553

Originally posted by greenpawn34

The injured party lost grading points because his opponent.cheated,
therefore his grade should have been higher than what is

Not really, though. A 2200-strength opponent is a 2200-strength opponent, whether they're getting their moves legitimately, by cheating, by casting the I Ching or whatever. As long as they're playing at the strength their rating indicates, the adjustment to your rating when you lose to them is still appropriate.

Many sites, such as ICC, allow engines as long as they're marked as such, and it would be the same situation; the rating would still count.

It only matters to your ego whether your opponent cheats, not to the rating system.

The only time you'd really lose out is if the cheater is still on the way up, or, say, maintains a low rating and then only cheats in your particular game.

Originally posted by greenpawn34
Looks like the vote is 50-50 - will post something on Site Ideas Forum.
Perhaps suggested No1.’s idea all results void.

One last try from another angle.

The cheating player used a computer to make his moves .
These beasts are very strong these days and can take down GM’s.

The injured party lost grading points because his opponent.cheated,
...[text shortened]... s right to play against stronger players and thus preventing him from
becoming a better player.

At the end of the day its just a number.

incandenza quote:

"It only matters to your ego whether your opponent cheats."

Have you seen the screaming and shouting that goes on when
one suspects the other of being a cheat.
They bay for blood.

I think you will find It's looked upon of more than an ego trip.

adramforall quote:

"At the end of the day its just a number."

Agreed.

So if it is just a number, why are a few of you against
me increasing this number for clean players who lost a game
of chess. Not because his opponent played better.
But because his opponent scammed him.

Why should the guys who play clean lose rating points
if they have played against and lost to a proven cheat.

Originally posted by greenpawn34
incandenza quote:

"It only matters to your ego whether your opponent cheats."

Have you seen the screaming and shouting that goes on when
one suspects the other of being a cheat.
They bay for blood.

I think you will find It's looked upon of more than an ego trip.

adramforall quote:

"At the end of the day its just a number."

Agreed.
...[text shortened]... who play clean lose rating points
if they have played against and lost to a proven cheat.

A user is rated 1245 lets say for the sake of having a number.

He cheats, and has a rating of 2156 (another number).

Most cheats you won't know what their true rating is, because they are cheating.

You were not able to beat the 2156 cheater, you don't know their true rating should be more like 1245. You should not gain points for a game you didn't win, the opponant was rated 2156... and later found to have been cheating and removed.

That's the end. You're trying to reward players who played against a cheat, but there is nothing to fix.

What I don't like is the tournament victories in the profile. They should be waxed. The tournament can't be given to the second place guy, because anyone the cheat beat may have been the potential victor.

P-

Originally posted by Phlabibit
A user is rated 1245 lets say for the sake of having a number.

He cheats, and has a rating of 2156 (another number).

Most cheats you won't know what their true rating is, because they are cheating.

You were not able to beat the 2156 cheater, you don't know their true rating should be more like 1245. You should not gain points for a game you didn' second place guy, because anyone the cheat beat may have been the potential victor.

P-

Has actually playing the whole tournament over again ever been considered? Could that be an option?

I guess it could wind up into a whole lot of tourneys too huh!

Originally posted by Very Rusty
Has actually playing the whole tournament over again ever been considered? Could that be an option?

Imagine playing it again, and other cheat being found! ARRRRG@!

Tournament, Take 3! Nice idea, if anyone wanted.

Perhaps they could take all the players in the final round, plus the players who lost to the cheat just to quicken it up, and not give second chances to those who lost legitimately.

P-