16 Mar 10
2 edits
Originally posted by Hugh GlassIf you had posted this last June, I would have strongly agreed with you.
Unless I have misunderstood something here, and that is possible. The reason for the vote this week, is to get it done before the spring break, when our representatives will return to their states. The fear is, they will hear the people? Now, is that right? In our system, they are suppose to hear the people, or fear them when their jobs are again up for v ...[text shortened]... alow time for further debate?
As I said, most of this bill does nothing for four years anyway.
But almost nothing has been happening in Washington for the past year BUT the never-ending debate about healthcare reform - the people have had plenty of time to voice every imaginable concern. The pundits and talkshow hosts have had plenty of time to make their case. The people in Congress have had plenty of time to engage in debate. Do you, yourself, really want to sit through another two months of this? It's put up or shut up time.
16 Mar 10
2 edits
Originally posted by Hugh GlassAlmost all of this would apply to Medicare. If the Supreme Court has any objections, it's had 45 years to voice them.
The Truth About the Health Care Bill - Michael Connelly, Ret. Constitutional Attorney
Well, I have done it! I have read the entire text of proposed House Bill 3200: The Affordable Health Care Choices Act of 2009. I studied it with particular emphasis from my area of expertise, constitutional law. I was frankly concerned that parts of the proposed law ghts. There you can see exactly what we are about to have taken from us.
Michael Connelly
The main objection that gets mentioned is the "individual mandate" element. Perhaps this might need to worded so that it becomes:
1. a general tax on income to raise money to subsidize people who can't afford to buy insurance. The 16th Amendment gives Congress the right to levy income taxes.
2. allow people with insurance to take a tax deduction to offset the costs of their premiums. The income tax code is already full of these sorts of things. The Supreme Court hasn't overturned them.
The net effect will be to give people the option of getting insurance or paying additional taxes. Just like you currently have the option of getting a mortgage or paying additional taxes. If this approach is unconstitutional, then the entire tax code is unconstitutional.
16 Mar 10
Originally posted by MelanerpesThere are those who argue just that fact. The tax code is unconstitutional.
Almost all of this would apply to Medicare. If the Supreme Court has any objections, it's had 45 years to voice them.
The main objection that gets mentioned is the "individual mandate" element. Perhaps this might need to worded so that it becomes:
1. a general tax on income to raise money to subsidize people who can't afford to buy insurance. The 16 ...[text shortened]... taxes. If this approach is unconstitutional, then the entire tax code is unconstitutional.
But that's another matter. ( my darn property taxes jumped 100.00 a month )
Does this Healthcare bill require more time for study? Is it a one time fix everything in one sweeping push? What is the cost?
I think it could evolve in to one, but as curently written, I think it is open to many challenges, and cost has to be the forerunner of these questions.
Lol, it's funny. As I have aged, I have become more and more set in my ways. I have become my father...?
16 Mar 10
1 edit
Originally posted by FMFJoneschr made that accusation, not I. However, I have heard precious little about the news myself. My guess is that the powers want to tone down the news so as not to mount opposition to it.
If that is true, how is it you claim to know so much about what it is and what it means? Remember, you don't have much of a reputation for posting info or analysis in good faith - and nor does utherpendragon - so we wait for something more than your default setting 'outrage' to manifest itself as evidence. If it is what you and utherpendragon claim, why isn't th ...[text shortened]... orce 12 political hurricane blowing with apoplectic Republicans spinning, swooping, soaring?
16 Mar 10
1 edit
Originally posted by utherpendragonForget about him. This is the 21rst century man. How can we live in the past in the time of our Founding Fathers? You know, we have technology and what not now. Its time to quote great statesmen of our time. In the words of Rahm Emmanuel, "Why don't you retards leave health care to the elitists"? Thinking about this, I guess the answer is because we are all a bunch of retards....retard. LOL.
A great man once said," ...and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.[/b]
16 Mar 10
Originally posted by whodeyIts all over Fox news,talk radio and the conservative and centrist web sites.Of course the "main stream" 🙄 media is going to down play this. They made Obama. They are not gonna try to derail or portray any of his ideas as something that is bad.
Joneschr made that accusation, not I. However, I have heard precious little about the news myself. My guess is that the powers want to tone down the news so as not to mount opposition to it.
16 Mar 10
Originally posted by MelanerpesI have a proposition for you Mel. Instead of elections, lets just create a list of the top 100 IQ's and have them assume office?
[b]Its time to take a stand in favor of elitism!! Elected officials are supposed to have an elitist mentality.
16 Mar 10
Originally posted by utherpendragonI heard it from Lavine, but have not really watched Fox news. What I find interesting is that no one has yet questioned the fact that this is NOT Constitutional. All I hear is arguements that we should let elitists yank our chains and to hell with the Constitution. Chains being the optimum word.
Its all over Fox news,talk radio and the conservative and centrist web sites.Of course the "main stream" 🙄 media is going to down play this. They made Obama. They are not gonna try to derail or portray any of his ideas as something that is bad.
16 Mar 10
1 edit
Originally posted by Melanerpeswhen it comes to getting something done right, can there be a time frame?
If you had posted this last June, I would have strongly agreed with you.
But almost nothing has been happening in Washington for the past year BUT the never-ending debate about healthcare reform - the people have had plenty of time to voice every imaginable concern. The pundits and talkshow hosts have had plenty of time to make their case. The people i ...[text shortened]... , yourself, really want to sit through another two months of this? It's put up or shut up time.
All I want to know, is:
1. cost, not a guestimate, a true cost
2. exactly what/when each phase of this plan starts. What I see is most does not happen for 4 years.Is that a truth?
3. exactly how it is paid for, not some figured pulled from the thin air, of how this plan will trim fat and save money.I want to see exactly how it is accomplished.
What this bill does, it does to my children, and future generations, who do not have a say in this. Why should I not ask questions now, and expect somewhat accurate figures?
You are right about almost nothing being done in washington. We have seen a year pass, with nothing to show for it. So, should we just take the easy path and say to heck with it, lets do it and move on?
This bill is 2400 pages for a reason, and that reason is to confuse everyone, so they will tire of it, and just wish it over. That just can't happenThe people have spoken, and no matter what you think about the polls, they all say basically the same,, they do not want it.
So in your theroy of our government knowing better than the rest of us, we should just knuckle under and presume they are doing what is in our best interest?
We saw an example of how politics can work, with the behind door meeting that resulted in both the Cornhusker kick-back, and Louisianna kick-back,,,, so I am suppose to trust these politicians with the future of my children?I'm sorry, I just can not do that.
I have written Peter deFazio, and Ron Wyden numerous times, and have yet to get anything of substance back. Wyden said that he presented his plan, but it was not chosen,,, when he comes home I'll call him.
17 Mar 10
Originally posted by Hugh GlassThe people spoke in the 2006 and 2008 elections when they elected large majorities of Democrats to the Congress and a Democratic President. In both elections, health care reform was a central issue. The Republican "do nothing" approach while health insurance premiums and medical costs skyrocketed even though close to 50 million Americans didn't have health insurance was rejected.
when it comes to getting something done right, can there be a time frame?
All I want to know, is:
1. cost, not a guestimate, a true cost
2. exactly what/when each phase of this plan starts. What I see is most does not happen for 4 years.Is that a truth?
3. exactly how it is paid for, not some figured pulled from the thin air, of how this plan will tri ...[text shortened]... n said that he presented his plan, but it was not chosen,,, when he comes home I'll call him.
Of course, the present plan which is a complex smorgasbord which has to keep doctors, health insurance companies and other business concerns happy, while extending coverage to tens of millions of Americans while raising some taxes and fees to make the proposal budget neutral can't be written on a post card or explained in a 30 second soundbite. But everyone here knows the basics of the proposal and to claim otherwise is disingenuous. Hugh isn't opposing it because he doesn't understand it; he's opposing it for philosophical reasons. That's fine, but the American people in the last two elections have repudiated his, whodey's, UPD's and the rest here's philosophy. Which is why the Republican minority is relying on an extraconstitutional, antidemocratic maneuver in the US Senate to defeat the will of the elected majority. But it seems the Democrats in the House are about to get their ducks in order and defeat the losers' efforts to stop the change the American people voted for.
The people will have their chance in November to register their disapproval, if that is what they really think. I have my doubts they will; already there has been significant movement back in support of passing this bill - the latest NBC/WSJ poll has the public narrowly backing its passing. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35897512/ns/politics
17 Mar 10
Originally posted by no1marauderAnd then after they say the corruption in the legislation they passed and were appalled, the people of MA voted in Senator Brown to try and reverse course.
[b]The people spoke in the 2006 and 2008 elections when they elected large majorities of Democrats to the Congress and a Democratic President. In both elections, health care reform was a central issue. The Republican "do nothing" approach while health insurance premiums and medical costs skyrocketed even though close to 50 million Americans didn't have health insurance was rejected.
17 Mar 10
2 edits
Originally posted by no1marauderYou forgot the bit about collecting increased taxes than what we are currently paying for 3 or 4 years before Obamacare actually took effect so that it will come close to being "budget neutral" after a 10 year period. Of course, after than 10 year period all bets are off!!
Of course, the present plan which is a complex smorgasbord which has to keep doctors, health insurance companies and other business concerns happy, while extending coverage to tens of millions of Americans while raising some taxes and fees to make the proposal budget neutral can't be written on a post card or explained in a 30 second soundbite.
17 Mar 10
1 edit
Originally posted by MelanerpesYou would have agreed with this last June but not now? You sound like Democrat Congressmen who favor Obamacare one minute and then oppose it the next or vice versa in only a matter of months or days!! With such uncertainty and confusion, why are we in such a hurry? Is it because Medicare and Medicaid are going belly up? If so, how is this bill going to be any different in the long run? Why are we rushing to pass a bigger and better plan of what has already been deemed a failure by both sides?
If you had posted this last June, I would have strongly agreed with you.
But almost nothing has been happening in Washington for the past year BUT the never-ending debate about healthcare reform - the people have had plenty of time to voice every imaginable concern. The pundits and talkshow hosts have had plenty of time to make their case. The people i ...[text shortened]... , yourself, really want to sit through another two months of this? It's put up or shut up time.