23 Sep 09
Originally posted by Melanerpeswhole foods: paper bags are made from recycled paper. they also encourage people to buy the reusable shopping bags which are best.
the main problem with voluntary conservation measures is that it's hard to tell what measures are the most effective - and what measures might even be counter-productive.
For example, at Whole Foods, they no longer offer plastic bags because they aren't biodegradable. But I worry that using paper bags means we're cutting down more trees. How do I know ...[text shortened]... y it is. This was much harder to do before those labels were required for everything.
electric cars: presumably most cars would be charging at night, when electrical load is lightest. Electric power plants are the most efficient when they run close to full capacity, so there would be a net energy savings.
I like your idea about standardization labels being mandatory on anything that uses energy, or is produced by energy, or that is shipped with energy. people should know the real cost factors in what they buy, it might change the way we shop.
23 Sep 09
Originally posted by MelanerpesDon't get bags from the grocery store. Bring your own bags and wash them when they get dirty. Why can't you just bring you own bags? Problem Solved!
the main problem with voluntary conservation measures is that it's hard to tell what measures are the most effective - and what measures might even be counter-productive.
For example, at Whole Foods, they no longer offer plastic bags because they aren't biodegradable. But I worry that using paper bags means we're cutting down more trees. How do I know ...[text shortened]... y it is. This was much harder to do before those labels were required for everything.
Electric cars are about 80% energy efficient...gas powered ones aer 30% energy efficient. Even if you are plugging in your car to an electrical grid powered by coal, you are still putting out less pollution than you are by a gas powered vehicle and all the GHG put in the atmosphere to make it and ship it to your gas station.
So, buy electric/hybrids if you want to cut down your emissions. Question Answered!
Now, you have no more excuses to not do the right thing.
23 Sep 09
Originally posted by uzlessI'm not talking about myself, but the marketplace as a whole.
Don't get bags from the grocery store. Bring your own bags and wash them when they get dirty. Why can't you just bring you own bags? Problem Solved!
Electric cars are about 80% energy efficient...gas powered ones aer 30% energy efficient. Even if you are plugging in your car to an electrical grid powered by coal, you are still putting out less polluti ...[text shortened]... our emissions. Question Answered!
Now, you have no more excuses to not do the right thing.
The "voluntary conservation" approach isn't going to work very well if everyone is has to ask themselves the sorts of questions I was posing and then guess what approach is the best.
Also - to use the hybrid car example. It may well be the best option right now for minimizing pollution and conserving resources. Perhaps the idea that "electric is always better" becomes popular with consumers. What if someone capitalizes on this by building a hybrid car that is much cheaper, but is also more wasteful or polluting - and someone else develops a traditional gas-powered car that is much cleaner and efficient?
23 Sep 09
Originally posted by MelanerpesThe "voluntary conservation" approach isn't going to work very well if everyone is has to ask themselves the sorts of questions I was posing and then guess what approach is the best.
I'm not talking about myself, but the marketplace as a whole.
The "voluntary conservation" approach isn't going to work very well if everyone is has to ask themselves the sorts of questions I was posing and then guess what approach is the best.
Also - to use the hybrid car example. It may well be the best option right now for minimizing pollution ...[text shortened]... nd someone else develops a traditional gas-powered car that is much cleaner and efficient?
just about everybody knows they can buy re-useable bags at the grocery store. I don't buy the argument that people aren't aware of this
What if someone capitalizes on this by building a hybrid car that is much cheaper, but is also more wasteful or polluting - and someone else develops a traditional gas-powered car that is much cleaner and efficient
You don't really believe this do you? Making counter arguments about things that will never happen isn't a realistic counter argument
23 Sep 09
Originally posted by uzlessMy point is that there are many many things people could do to conserve natural resources. The bag issue was just the first thing that came to mind.
The "voluntary conservation" approach isn't going to work very well if everyone is has to ask themselves the sorts of questions I was posing and then guess what approach is the best.
[b] just about everybody knows they can buy re-useable bags at the grocery store. I don't buy the argument that people aren't aware of this
What if someone capita ...[text shortened]... ter arguments about things that will never happen isn't a realistic counter argument [/b][/b]
But I'm sure most people are aware of only a small fraction of these options. And I doubt that even among conservation-minded people, that many are going to do everything they possibly can do.
The idea is that you want these people to be focused on doing the things that will make the biggest difference. But for that to happen, they need to know what those things are.
My point with the car issue is similar. People need to know how big of a difference that electric car is making relative to the gasoline car. And after all the "impossible things" that have been invented over the past century, I would be very slow to pronounce anything to be impossible. If there's a market for something, someone will build it.
23 Sep 09
Originally posted by uzlessWashing bags may take more energy than it takes to make one.
Don't get bags from the grocery store. Bring your own bags and wash them when they get dirty. Why can't you just bring you own bags? Problem Solved!
Electric cars are about 80% energy efficient...gas powered ones aer 30% energy efficient. Even if you are plugging in your car to an electrical grid powered by coal, you are still putting out less polluti ...[text shortened]... our emissions. Question Answered!
Now, you have no more excuses to not do the right thing.
24 Sep 09
1 edit
Originally posted by MelanerpesYes but how is government and/or corporations going to make money off your proposal? This is why it will NEVER happen.
the main problem with voluntary conservation measures is that it's hard to tell what measures are the most effective - and what measures might even be counter-productive.
For example, at Whole Foods, they no longer offer plastic bags because they aren't biodegradable. But I worry that using paper bags means we're cutting down more trees. How do I know y it is. This was much harder to do before those labels were required for everything.
Personally, I like the idea of giving large tax cuts to anyone who invests in solar power, or insulates their homes, or buys an fuel efficient vehicle etc.
24 Sep 09
1 edit
Originally posted by joe beyserIt reminds me of the government push to use ethanol for fuel. It actually does more harm than good to the enviornement in the long run. In addition, if it were not for the government subsidizing these endevours, it would not be cost beneficial. All I can figure is that these politicians are close to brain dead or the big money lobbiests in the ethanol industry had their way with them.
Washing bags may take more energy than it takes to make one.
24 Sep 09
Originally posted by whodeyLets use food to make car fuel. Sounds like govt to me. And they say we are overpopulated and using up resources and we will have famine unless we have a one child policy.
It reminds me of the government push to use ethanol for fuel. It actually does more harm than good to the enviornement in the long run. In addition, if it were not for the government subsidizing these endevours, it would not be cost beneficial. All I can figure is that these politicians are close to brain dead or the big money lobbiests in the ethanol industry had their way with them.
24 Sep 09
Originally posted by joe beyserI think they are trying to create a food crisis so they can take over the food industry. You know their next, don't ya!!
Lets use food to make car fuel. Sounds like govt to me. And they say we are overpopulated and using up resources and we will have famine unless we have a one child policy.