19 Dec 07
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Originally posted by PhlabibitOk, where is your proof that he took them? Correct, you have none. You have the testimony of a guy who got busted for selling prescription drugs with a prescription and who cut a deal to save his own tail. No failed urine tests, no failed blood screens...nothing but innuendo and speculation. Granted, he may have done it, but regardless, in America, the court system says you are innocent until proven guilty. When I was playing, there were several of us using DMSO to help our injuries. It was illegal to purchased prescription DMSO without a doctor's order. However, it was not illegal to purchase a slightly lesser grade of DMSO that was used in treating horses, which we did. Here is the rub...the stuff was dangerous because it was not as pure as the prescription stuff, but they wouldn't write the prescription for it, so you do what you gotta do. At the highest level, the pressure to perform at a high level consistently is huge and if you miss your turn, you may not get it back. You pitch through pain and injuries and you injure it worse. IF you shut it down to save the injury, you may lose your job. This is very big and very real. There are miliions of dollars at stake as well. You can bet the baseball owners were very much aware of all of this going on. Oh, they will claim they didn't know, but they did. In some instances, they may have been instrumental in setting up the deal to begin with. This is not a playground game where you play fair and may the best man win. That is a fairy tale. If the stuff helps you heal faster, you do it for the team. Many pro athletes in all sports tank it up so they can play. Is it safe for them...in the long haul no. But they are making the choice not you. There is no detriment to anyone other than themselves. They still have to put the work in to gain the muscle mass...it doesn't appear magically. If it allows them to speed the process, so be it. The game is full of cheats, corner cutters, whatever you want to call them, and it always has been. This is another of those areas.
ironman31 would have won a lot of chess games if he wasn't using an engine. He decided to use an engine to win more.
The big deal is 'wrong is wrong'. Don't cheat.
BTW... Roger says he didn't do the drugs. Ask him why he's taking so damn long to come out and say that and answer questions about it. He's trying to formulate his lies, cover his but, and see what he can get away with saying. That's bull.
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19 Dec 07
Originally posted by shortcircuitThe proof is the testimony, why lie? If you lie, that's perjury. Rocket's buddy Andy admitted it was true. Many of the players have come forward to apologize, the info was true.
Ok, where is your proof that he took them? Correct, you have none. You have the testimony of a guy who got busted for selling prescription drugs with a prescription and who cut a deal to save his own tail. No failed urine tests, no failed blood screens...nothing but innuendo and speculation. Granted, he may have done it, but regardless, in America, the ...[text shortened]... ers, whatever you want to call them, and it always has been. This is another of those areas.
But not with Roger? Why is Roid Rocket taking so long to say anything? I already told you... he's checking his lies, he's seeing what he can get away with, and he's talking with lawyers trying to figure out just how many lies he can get away with.
You idiots taking horse drugs did what you thought you need to do. That doesn't make it right, you were CHEATING!
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19 Dec 07
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Originally posted by PhlabibitHow was it cheating? Baseball did not have any law against it. They still don't. I can name you several prominent players who used it for the very reason I did...to recover from injury. The reason it was illegal was because of the FDA. To call me an idiot shows you have very little regard for what this truly is....a business. The fact that you are up in arms about Roger is your Red Sox bitterness over him kicking your tails for your hated rivals after your GM said he was washed up and dealt him. You want to discuss Curt Schilling? How about Manny Ramirez?
The proof is the testimony, why lie? If you lie, that's perjury. Rocket's buddy Andy admitted it was true. Many of the players have come forward to apologize, the info was true.
But not with Roger? Why is Roid Rocket taking so long to say anything? I already told you... he's checking his lies, he's seeing what he can get away with, and he's talkin ...[text shortened]... did what you thought you need to do. That doesn't make it right, you were CHEATING!
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Point # 2. It isn't perjury unless you are testifying under oath and it can be proven that you did what you testified you didn't. Spin it anyway you like, it isn't going to stick. Barry Bonds testified under oath. So did McGwire, Palmiero and Sosa. Surely you must think they are all guilty too? Are any of them in jail? Barry might get some time if the Balco evidence does condemn him. McGwire said all along he was taking Amdro...but it wasn't illegal when he was taking it. So why is everyone barking about it? The reason is the HOF and the writers who have their high morals and want to dictate who goes in. Those sleazy rag writers would sleep with your mother to get a story. Do you think they are ethical? Time to grow up and get into the real world. Sometimes you gotta get your hands dirty in order to get the job done.
EDIT- It is illegal to videotape the opposition in football too, but a certain nameless team from your area did it, got caught, got fined, because it was cheating. Shouldn't they forfeit all of their games because they cheated? Do you see how silly that sounds?
19 Dec 07
Originally posted by shortcircuitBaseball does have a rule... see the 1991 memo NumbNuts was kind enough to post.
How was it cheating? Baseball did not have any law against it. They still don't. I can name you several prominent players who used it for the very reason I did...to recover from injury. The reason it was illegal was because of the FDA. To call me an idiot shows you have very little regard for what this truly is....a business. The fact that you are up in ...[text shortened]... into the real world. Sometimes you gotta get your hands dirty in order to get the job done.
If it's illegal, it's against the rules. I'm in business, should I pay employees under the table and screw around with my taxes to make more money? It's Business!
That doesn't make it right. As for your list of playes, McGwire was smart and fessed up. Now no one cares. Barry very well may do some time, Roger might end up in the same situation if he keep denying this. From what I understand, Roger will be in court some time soon. If he plans on telling lies, it might bite him in the ass... and that's going to hurt more than the needle he shoved in it.
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19 Dec 07
Originally posted by PhlabibitI guess I will have to make this even simpler for you. Do you drive a car? Have you ever broken the speed limit? Were you cited for it? Did you turn yourself in and asked to be fined for those times that you broke the limit and did not get caught? Were you guilty of breaking the law every time you did it? Did you ever get a lawyer to get you out of the ticket?
Baseball does have a rule... see the 1991 memo NumbNuts was kind enough to post.
If it's illegal, it's against the rules. I'm in business, should I pay employees under the table and screw around with my taxes to make more money? It's Business!
That doesn't make it right. As for your list of playes, McGwire was smart and fessed up. Now no one car ...[text shortened]... te him in the ass... and that's going to hurt more than the needle he shoved in it.
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Have you ever smoked pot? Did you ever have any alcohol when you were underaged? Have you ever worked for anyone, anyhwere at anytime for cash money that you failed to report to the IRS?
If you answered no to all of the above questions you are either a living saint or a liar. I will say you are a liar because that is what I believe. Do you see any problem with that line of logic? Then apply it to the steroid case.
19 Dec 07
If i were to be caught breaking the law, are you saying I should not be punished because only saints obey the law. I am not asking for jail time, return of their salary or fame or even expulsion from the game (although a suspension might be appropriate) What I am asking is that all those named are not HONORED for their tainted accomplishments. No Hall of Fame, no retired numbers, no banners in their home ballpark, no capitancy.
19 Dec 07
Originally posted by shortcircuitWhen I get pulled over, I don't tell the cop "What?@! You are crazy! I never speed."
I guess I will have to make this even simpler for you. Do you drive a car? Have you ever broken the speed limit? Were you cited for it? Did you turn yourself in and asked to be fined for those times that you broke the limit and did not get caught? Were you guilty of breaking the law every time you did it? Did you ever get a lawyer to get you out of the ...[text shortened]... at I believe. Do you see any problem with that line of logic? Then apply it to the steroid case.
I also would NEVER speed through a school zone. That's different than if I'm on the open highway or a back road with no traffic and driveways. My major problem is when these guys start getting all this evidence pointing at them they lie more. Just fess up already.
Everyone knows how important the numbers are to baseball, and these drug abusing roid junkies are screwing up the numbers.
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19 Dec 07
Originally posted by jofazThat is ridiculous because several of those named put up numbers that would have gotten them into the HOF without the perceived benefit because they were among the best already. You are another guilt by association person, which is why Joe Jackson isn't in the HOF. Pete Rose broke no rule as a player, but he is not in the HOF. Gaylord Perry, Babe Ruth, Whitey Ford, Mickey Mantle and a plethora of others did break baseball rules but are in the HOF. How do you justify your position?
If i were to be caught breaking the law, are you saying I should not be punished because only saints obey the law. I am not asking for jail time, return of their salary or fame or even expulsion from the game (although a suspension might be appropriate) What I am asking is that all those named are not HONORED for their tainted accomplishments. No Hall of Fame, no retired numbers, no banners in their home ballpark, no capitancy.
19 Dec 07
1 edit
Originally posted by PhlabibitYou are already bending the law to suit your own goal if you willfully and knowingly elect to break the law.
When I get pulled over, I don't tell the cop "What?@! You are crazy! I never speed."
I also would NEVER speed through a school zone. That's different than if I'm on the open highway or a back road with no traffic and driveways. My major problem is when these guys start getting all this evidence pointing at them they lie more. Just fess up already. ...[text shortened]... ers are to baseball, and these drug abusing roid junkies are screwing up the numbers.
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Your honor, I rest my case.
19 Dec 07
Originally posted by shortcircuitWell, you know I'm not a saint.... are you surprised I don't use a chess engine at RHP? There is a reason for that... it's not fair to the game and the people I play against who don't want me or them CHEATING!
You are already bending the law to suit your own goal if you willfully and knowingly elect to break the law.
Your honor, I rest my case.
I don't cheat on my wife either.
Case closed, I WOND!
19 Dec 07
Originally posted by shortcircuitWhat would happen if Tiger Woods cheated on the 17th hole?
That is ridiculous because several of those named put up numbers that would have gotten them into the HOF without the perceived benefit because they were among the best already. You are another guilt by association person, which is why Joe Jackson isn't in the HOF. Pete Rose broke no rule as a player, but he is not in the HOF. Gaylord Perry, Babe Ruth, ...[text shortened]... ethora of others did break baseball rules but are in the HOF. How do you justify your position?
Answer: Disqualification, it doesn't make a difference how well he did on hole 1-16 if he cheated on 17.
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19 Dec 07
Gaylord Perry, Babe Ruth, Whitey Ford, Mickey Mantle and a plethora of others did break baseball rules but are in the HOF. How do you justify your position?[/b]I would not put Gaylord Perry in the Hall of Fame he was proud of his cheating. As for Ruth, Ford and Mantle, they did not cheat. The argument that Bonds and Clemens belong in the Hall of Fame for their prior accomplishments (1) we do not know when they started cheating. We know they cheat (2) cheating ruins everything. No one says as boy Hitler was a peaceful man... his later life definies his persona. To me Bonds and Clemens ruined everything they accomplished and I want no retired numbers, no days in their honor, no hall of fame and no one picking and choosing which numbers the think are legitimate and praising them for it.
20 Dec 07
Originally posted by jofazYou don't have the choice, they are all already IN the HOF, and they all were cheats. Hell, Whitey Ford threw a great spitter. In fact, it is documented that he was loading them up against Willie Mays because Mays had been hitting the hell out of him. He made Mays look silly. Mantle and Mays were both involved with gaming casinos which is in strict violation of the MLB rules (that is the same rule they are using to keep Pete Rose out by the way). If you want me to go on, I can continue. The list is pretty long and these are all verifiable. The problem you have is that it is easy to punish the transgressions of the mediocre and lesser players, but the stars are quite another thing. Do you recall Juan Marichal beating the hell out of John Roseboro with a baseball bat on the field during a game? That was assault and battery. It went away and Jaun Marichal is in the HOF. Ty Cobb was notorius for cutting players to ribbons with his spikes by "coming in high" which is a violation of the rules. Last I checked, Cobb was still in the HOF.
I would not put Gaylord Perry in the Hall of Fame he was proud of his cheating. As for Ruth, Ford and Mantle, they did not cheat. The argument that Bonds and Clemens belong in the Hall of Fame for their prior accomplishments (1) we do not know when they started cheating. We know they cheat (2) cheating ruins everything. No one says as boy Hitler was a pea ...[text shortened]... and no one picking and choosing which numbers the think are legitimate and praising them for it.
20 Dec 07
1 edit
Originally posted by PhlabibitI don't use a chess engine either....maybe I should be in the chess HOF? What would be the benefit of using a chess engine so I could win a game that there is no benefit of winning?
Well, you know I'm not a saint.... are you surprised I don't use a chess engine at RHP? There is a reason for that... it's not fair to the game and the people I play against who don't want me or them CHEATING!
I don't cheat on my wife either.
Case closed, I WOND!
Most ballplayers are far from saints as well. People, just like you bend rules to suit their situations everyday. They may rationalize that it is no big deal, but they are breaking the rules or the law just the same. If no one broke the rules or laws, we would have no need for government, police forces, the court system, umpires right on down the line. Everyone looks for the edge. Tiger Wood's golf clubs are better than anything you can buy. He is already a better golfer than you, why should he get better equipment too. Because he can afford it and because he is perpetually looking for an edge. Everyone does.
As for not cheating on your wife....you are honorable to your commitment. What if your wife cheats on you though? Does it vindicate you to cheat as well, or do you quit the marriage immediately and move along?