Why did Christ die?

Originally posted by jaywill
While you're on the admonition to improve "credibility" through reading comprehension, isn't [b]"teaching them to observe all things, whatever I commanded you ..." rather self explanatory?

" ... observe all things ... whatever I commanded you ..." (See Matt. 28:20)

Which part of that phrase do you not understand?[/b]

Try reading all the posts and understanding what's being asked and why. I'm sure you're quite capable, but perhaps in too much of a hurry to give your response.

It's not that I don't understand it. I'd just like to know exactly what whodey thinks is to be observed. Are you authorized to speak for him?

Originally posted by whodey
You are putting me in the position of being God and for which I do not qualify. However, I can tell you what God has said through his word and that is that man is saved via the sacrifice of his Son on the cross. Christ overcame death, hell, and the grave for ALL of mankind. This is what was accomplished on the cross, or at least according to the Bible.
...[text shortened]... less, those who make it do so because Christ has the power of death that once had power over us.

Actually, I was only trying to ascertain exactly what you meant by "For all of you who do not think that Christ is the only way to God..." It can be interpreted at least a couple of different ways.

There seems to be a tendency in “theologies of the cross” to skip over the incarnation—as if that was just a way to get to the cross and resurrection. If that was the case, the Logos could have simply become miraculously incarnate as a thirty-something adult...

Without taking away the symbolism of the cross per se, the logos tou theou cannot be truly incarnate as a human being if that does not involve an eventual death. This whole issue was the subject of much early church debate (e.g., vis-à-vis Arianism, docetism, monophysitism, etc.). Out of all that came the doctrine of two natures in one hypostasis.

Had Jesus been run over by an oxcart, Christians would be talking about how God assumed human nature in the incarnation, died subject to (“sacrificed to” ) the vagaries of human existence (even human culpability), and conquered death in the resurrection. All the rest of what that means would be argued just as it is now. The story would change; the underlying meaning would not.

But the story we have is the story we have—Jesus died because he was human. Jesus died in the way he died because the Romans killed him, and the priests of the temple cult wanted him dead. Politics and religion. And if he were around today, saying the things he said then, I suspect there would be a lot of Christians calling for his head. He really wouldn’t be less of a skandalon today.

Originally posted by whodey
Ok kids. For all of you who do not think that Christ is the only way to God, why then did Christ say that he laid down his life for us? I mean, what was the purpose if there were a number of equal or better choices? Did he do it for kicks? If Christ were only but one of many prophets of God and nothing more, why did he lay down his life? For what?

Well, Jesus didn't die at all. You may notice the verse that tells about being covered in Aloe and other herbs. Aloe is not an embalming fluid, nobody EVER used Aloe on a dead body to make it smell better or something. The reason Aloe was used because they paid off the guards to not kill him, usually they break the legs of those in that position, although it was not common to even use crosses like that, more likely tied to a tree. In any event, he was cut down way before the usual period and his legs were not broken, but a single stab wound not very deep into his side. These are not life threatening injuries. So instead of dying, he was coated in Aloe and other HEALING herbs to do just that, heal him. So then, not being a wise thing to show up to the Romans after he was supposedly dead, he hung out for three days till he could stand on his own, makes a mysterious appearance and pulls a Copperfield and disappears into the mist never to be seen again but in fact taking off down the silk road, which is away from the Roman empire, starting monastaries along the way and dying in what is now Pakistan. There is a lot of real evidence for just such a scenerio. Of course, christians would fight that idea to the death, not wanting a key dogma of their so-called religion to be questioned.

Originally posted by whodey
Matthew 28: 16 Meanwhile the eleven disciples set out for Galilee, to the mountains where Jesus had arranged to meet them. When they saw him they fell down before him, though some hesitated. Jesus came up and spoke to them. He said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, make disciples of all the nations; baptize them ...[text shortened]... Chrst says he lays down his life in order that he should take it up again. For what purpose?

how does your quote fit with this one , also from Matthew?

4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain,
and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou
wilt fall down and worship me.

Originally posted by vistesd
There seems to be a tendency in “theologies of the cross” to skip over the incarnation—as if that was just a way to get to the cross and resurrection. If that was the case, the Logos could have simply become miraculously incarnate as a thirty-something adult...

Without taking away the symbolism of the cross per se, the logos tou theou cannot be t ...[text shortened]... lot of Christians calling for his head. He really wouldn’t be less of a skandalon today.

I would agree that if Christ were alive today that people would call for his head as they did when he walked the earth. After all, Christ said that the world hated him because he shed light upon their darkness of their hearts according to their deeds. Those that sought his life had deeds that were evil and they did not wish them to be revealed nor change in any way because they preferred the darkness over the light. To say that all "Christians" would be calling for his head, however, I think is a bit speculative. In fact, religious leaders such as Nicodemus did not wish for Christ to be crucified and I suspect there may have been others. Not everyone prefers the darkness.

I understand people who look at the story in the Bible about Christ and his life and his crucifixian and subsequent resurrection and simply scoff at it as rubbish. However, what I do not understand is people who believe what is written as being the inspired word of God and say that Christ was a mere prophet such as Moses or any other mortal man. Christ says that
1. No man takes his life, rather, he lays it down.
2. No man has a greater love for his friends than to lay down his life for them.
3. Knew that he was to be killed and would raised up on the third day.
4. Was actually resurrected on the third day and told his disciples to spread the good news. What good news other than the resurrection and its implications?

The entire story presents problems for those who believe that Christ was not part of the Trinitarian God. Why did Christ lay down his life? For what? Why was he then resurrected? For what? You say that Christ simply could have been run over by an oxcart. However, the truth of the matter is that those in seats of power sought to kill Christ throughout most of his ministry. You might say that the oxcart followed him around until Christ decided it was time to get run over.

Originally posted by frogstomp
how does your quote fit with this one , also from Matthew?

4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain,
and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou
wilt fall down and worship me.

You tell me.

Originally posted by sonhouse
Well, Jesus didn't die at all. You may notice the verse that tells about being covered in Aloe and other herbs. Aloe is not an embalming fluid, nobody EVER used Aloe on a dead body to make it smell better or something. The reason Aloe was used because they paid off the guards to not kill him, usually they break the legs of those in that position, although i ...[text shortened]... t that idea to the death, not wanting a key dogma of their so-called religion to be questioned.

No, that's Elvis your thinking of. 😛

Originally posted by whodey
I would agree that if Christ were alive today that people would call for his head as they did when he walked the earth. After all, Christ said that the world hated him because he shed light upon their darkness of their hearts according to their deeds. Those that sought his life had deeds that were evil and they did not wish them to be revealed nor change in ...[text shortened]... ight say that the oxcart followed him around until Christ decided it was time to get run over.

(1) I did not mean all Christians.

(2) The silly oxcart thing was just meant to make a point; and I did not exclude the resurrection from that either.

I think it is important to the story that those "in seats of power" sought to kill him.

But the question of the incarnation (which would necessarily entail death) is: Why should God choose to become fully human?

Originally posted by vistesd
(1) I did not mean all Christians.

(2) The silly oxcart thing was just meant to make a point; and I did not exclude the resurrection from that either.

I think it is important to the story that those "in seats of power" sought to kill him.

But the question of the incarnation (which would necessarily entail death) is: Why should God choose to become fully human?

Why would God choose to become fully human? Well this is an interesting question. I think it goes back to Christ's teachings that if one is to rule then one must serve. It goes something to the effect that he who exults himself will be abased and he who abases himself will be exulted. This is found in Matthew 23:11. It seems counterintuitive to make such a statement. Why is it necessary to serve before being served? I think it may have something to do with what is owed to you. After all, if I work for you in a way you gradually become indebted to me in some way, no? Just look at history. Who do we esteem? Is it the likes of Hitler who grabbed power as soon as he could and then demanded to be served and then was later abased for it or do we esteem those such as Ghandi and Christ who seek to serve and then are later exulted? Having said all of that, how then is the most effective way to serve and be submissive to mankind? I think perhaps the best way to serve is in human weakened form, no?

Another insight as to why Christ came as a human form is found in Hebrews 2:18 which says, "For since he himself was tempted in that which he has suffered, he is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted." Here again we see Christ in a position of weakness and submission or service to the Father by resisting temptation in his weakened human state thereby obtaining power in the process over such temptation. This is in line with James 4:7 which says, "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you." Notice that the first step is to submit yourself to God or put yourself in a position of service to him. Then through the power of God and what Christ has done in obtaining power over temptation you will be victorious.

I think the biggest reason that Christ came into the world in human form, however, is to obtain power over death, hell, and the grave for our sakes. Christ said that he laid down his life for us. In fact, it is clearly evident that he in no way wanted to go to the cross. We see this as he sweated great drops of blood and asked the Father that if it be possible to take it all away. Therefore we must conclude that he was not serving himself by going to the cross but serving all of mankind. By going to the cross and dying, however, a spiritual law had been broken. That law was that if one sins then they must die. However, Christ did not sin, therefore, by what right did death have in taking him? Death now had an obligation to Christ and now it is only through Christ that we can escpae death because we are all sinners and death should have rights to us. In a sense, it is like trading a life for a life.

Again, as counterintuitive as it may seem, service equals power!

Originally posted by whodey
He said that I am the way, the truth and the life and that NO man comes to the FAther but by me.

The passage you quote is often cited with a sense of exclusiveness, that one must be a Christian to well, be a Christian. There is nothing to exclude a Buddhist, a Muslim or a Jew from representing the "way, truth , and life.

Originally posted by kirksey957
The passage you quote is often cited with a sense of exclusiveness, that one must be a Christian to well, be a Christian. There is nothing to exclude a Buddhist, a Muslim or a Jew from representing the "way, truth , and life.

You tell me? What does God say about it? After all, it makes precious little difference what we think or what we want to believe because we are not the ones making such decisions. All I know is what I feel his has communicated through his word.

Originally posted by kirksey957
The passage you quote is often cited with a sense of exclusiveness, that one must be a Christian to well, be a Christian. There is nothing to exclude a Buddhist, a Muslim or a Jew from representing the "way, truth , and life.

I think the very concepts of heaven and hell necessitate an air of exclusiveness. In the end you will have some that make it and some that do not. It then boils down to by what criterea we make it or do not. How then, in your opinion, is such criterea determained?

There is no way around this delimma of exclusiveness except by saying that either everyone goes to heaven or that no one goes to heaven. In fact, many find their comfort zones in coming up with thier own theology that says everyone goes to heaven or there is no heaven at all to go to. That way no one is offended. As for me, I am not attempting to find a comfort level by trying to avoid offending people, rather, I am only interested in the truth which I have found many times in the past can be very uncomfortable at times but worthwhile nonetheless.

In terms of Biblical theology, however, there are dilemma's in saying that ALL roads or ALL religions lead to the same God. In OT times God said that we are to have NO other gods before him. How do you interpret this? Are those who worshiped Baal, for example, in the OT equivalent to that of the God of Abrahm? If so, then you disagree with those who wrote the OT. For them there God was exclusive. If you then agree with those who wrote the OT then why is the god Baal any better or worse than the god of the Hindus or Buddhists, for example?

There is no way around it, exclusiveness breeds offense. In fact, many were offended at Christs message.

Originally posted by whodey
I think the very concepts of heaven and hell necessitate an air of exclusiveness. In the end you will have some that make it and some that do not. It then boils down to by what criterea we make it or do not. How then, in your opinion, is such criterea determained?

There is no way around this delimma of exclusiveness except by saying that either everyo ...[text shortened]... o way around it, exclusiveness breeds offense. In fact, many were offended at Christs message.

When it is said that we should have no other gods before Him, this is a reference to idols. It is very hard for us humans to worship an abstract concept. God is the "Unknowable essence." He is so far beyond our range of consciousness that we can not in any way approach Him. Think of a painting trying to understand the painter. For this reason we tend to find something tangible to represent Him. People worship The statue of Buddha, depictions of Hindu gods. People worship the cross and they worship Jesus.

Moses and Jesus were of the same level, but Christians magnify statements about Jesus and completely ignore the same ones about Moses.

I and my Father are one. JOHN 10:30

The above statement is sometimes taken to mean that Jesus is God. But take a look at this next passage.

I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. JOHN 5:30

This two statement are not in contradiction. In fact they are saying exactly the same thing; mainly that Jesus is a vessel by which God communicates with us. He is a mirror in which we can see God.

1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: COL 1:15

...but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father. MAT 20:23

There is a dual nature in prophets of God. Sometimes they are humans like everyone else, and at other times they are God Himself.

For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. ACT 3:22 TO 26

Clearly Jesus is a prophet like Moses, but Moses and Jesus are not just regular prophets.

And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face, 34:11 In all the signs and the wonders, which the LORD sent him to do in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh, and to all his servants, and to all his land, 34:12 And in all that mighty hand, and in all the great terror which Moses shewed in the sight of all Israel. DEU 34:11

And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream. 12:7 My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house. 12:8 With him will I speak face to face, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses? NUM 12:6,7,8

As we see from the above passages, Moses, like Jesus, was no ordinary prophet.
Now let’s look at some of the similarities between Moses and Jesus.

I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. DEU 18:18

Now therefore go, and I will be with thy mouth, and teach thee what thou shalt say. EX 4:12

And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the LORD hath sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of mine own mind. NUM 16:28

Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. JOHN 14:10

For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak. JOHN 12:49,51

Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. EZE 18:30

And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel. MAR 1:15

The priest and clergy want to hold on to money and power. Of course they are going to teach exclusivity. The truth however is that there is only one God who has been sending Messengers from the dawn of time. It is the religious leaders who have distorted things for their own selfish purpose.

Originally posted by whodey
I think the very concepts of heaven and hell necessitate an air of exclusiveness. In the end you will have some that make it and some that do not. It then boils down to by what criterea we make it or do not. How then, in your opinion, is such criterea determained?

There is no way around this delimma of exclusiveness except by saying that either everyo o way around it, exclusiveness breeds offense. In fact, many were offended at Christs message.

What Christ-like qualities do you think Jerry Falwell missed in Larry Flynt?

I must add an edit as I see that the Wesboro Baptist Church will be picketing the funeral of the "false prophet" Jerry Falwell as he preached that God loves everybody. As they say "Hell was split wide open the instant he died." A church with no ambiguity, Wesboro Baptist Church.