What Stephen Hawkins said on that show

Originally posted by utherpendragon
There is no time. Time is a man made concept. There is no tomorrow or yesterday. Everything is now.
Think of a panarama.

What else would you call the movement from low entropy to high entropy?

Originally posted by epiphinehas
What else would you call the movement from low entropy to high entropy?

Wikipedia says:

Entropy is the only quantity in the physical sciences (apart from certain rare interactions in particle physics; see below) that requires a particular direction for time, sometimes called an arrow of time. As one goes "forward" in time, the second law of thermodynamics says, the entropy of an isolated system will increase. Hence, from one perspective, entropy measurement is a way of distinguishing the past from the future. However in thermodynamic systems that are not closed, entropy can decrease with time: many systems, including living systems, reduce local entropy at the expense of an environmental increase, resulting in a net increase in entropy. Examples of such systems and phenomena include the formation of certain crystals, the workings of a refrigerator and living organisms.

ETC.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Don't we tell time by the rotation of the earth, the position of the sun and
moon and stars?

No, not always. I usually use my computers clock or my watch, or the clock on the wall, or even my cell phone. Each has its own way of keeping time.
So are you going to explain what your point was, or are you going to continue being vague, then getting shocked when nobody understands what you are saying?

Originally posted by twhitehead
But 'create' is a term that is wholly dependant on the concept of time. If time is not passing, creation cannot happen. One cannot create time. It is meaningless to say the creator created a universe in which there is time, but that 'before' he 'created' it there was no time.
If time is a dimension of the universe and only of the universe, then it is meaningless to speak of a creator.

Think of it more as 'eternity past,' just as what is on its way (following the history of man) is 'eternity future.' Both bookends are--- for lack of a better way of describing it here--- un-timed events.

Originally posted by twhitehead
No, not always. I usually use my computers clock or my watch, or the clock on the wall, or even my cell phone. Each has its own way of keeping time.
So are you going to explain what your point was, or are you going to continue being vague, then getting shocked when nobody understands what you are saying?

You are just being silly now. You know what I mean. We did not always
have these modern gadgets to tell time. Man used other methods, like
a sundial or a stick on the ground to measure the movement of the
shadow of the sun. Today our days, weeks, months, and years are
based on these movements of the earth in relation to the Sun, moon,
and stars. So when God created the heavens and the earth, He created
the clock to tell time and in effect created time. There was no way to
tell time before the creation, therefore, how can we say there was time
before. There was no way to prove what time it was. Scientist make
the mistake of thinking that time and space began with the "Big Bang".
Although the creation was rapid and there was the sound waves of God's
voice commanding the creation into existence and to expand and occupy
the space that was already there, it was no explosion as we would think
of a "Big Bang". Is that simple enough for your mind to comprehend?

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
he could be outside "our" time. but still be bound to his time. think of you and a copy of fight club on dvd. the fight club universe has not started. it may never start. as such, it's time is set at 0. then comes the "big inserting the dvd in the dvd player and hitting play".

the fight club universe has started.

the first law of fight club universe is that we don't talk about fight club universe...

Originally posted by RJHinds
What do you mean by "it".

It=god or gods.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Wikipedia says:

Entropy is the only quantity in the physical sciences (apart from certain rare interactions in particle physics; see below) that requires a particular direction for time, sometimes called an arrow of time. As one goes "forward" in time, the second law of thermodynamics says, the entropy of an isolated system will increase. Hence, from one ...[text shortened]... he formation of certain crystals, the workings of a refrigerator and living organisms.

ETC.

So the question that comes to mind here, do you think your god has no entropy?
Wouldn't it follow that if god has no entropy, it also has no time?
No entropy in our sense could mean a time dimension at 'right angles' to our time dimension which would mean such a being would have a time dimension of its own but still able to interact with our universe in some way.

I don't know if that idea has been delved into by cosmologists or not.

Originally posted by sonhouse
So the question that comes to mind here, do you think your god has no entropy?
Wouldn't it follow that if god has no entropy, it also has no time?
No entropy in our sense could mean a time dimension at 'right angles' to our time dimension which would mean such a being would have a time dimension of its own but still able to interact with our universe in some way.

I don't know if that idea has been delved into by cosmologists or not.

I have no interest in wether God has enthropy or not. You might
address your question to epiphinehas, since he brought up the
subject. Maybe he will be willing to discuss it with you.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I have no interest in wether God has enthropy or not. You might
address your question to epiphinehas, since he brought up the
subject. Maybe he will be willing to discuss it with you.

Maybe you have no interest in that idea because thinking about it would bring about doubts about this god of yours.

Originally posted by RJHinds
You are just being silly now. You know what I mean.

Not at all. You expect everyone to be a mind reader and know what you mean when you don't actually say what you mean.

So when God created the heavens and the earth, He created
the clock to tell time and in effect created time.
So how can you (or God) know whether or not he existed before the heavens and the earth if there was no clock to tell what time it was? Therefore God could not have existed before creation because there cant have been a before.

Scientist make the mistake of thinking that time and space began with the "Big Bang".
Although the creation was rapid and there was the sound waves of God's
voice commanding the creation into existence and to expand and occupy
the space that was already there, it was no explosion as we would think
of a "Big Bang". Is that simple enough for your mind to comprehend?
Now you are contradicting yourself. First you say there was no time before the creation, now you say there was time. Which is it?

Originally posted by twhitehead
Not at all. You expect everyone to be a mind reader and know what you mean when you don't actually say what you mean.

[b]So when God created the heavens and the earth, He created
the clock to tell time and in effect created time.
So how can you (or God) know whether or not he existed before the heavens and the earth if there was no clock to tell ...[text shortened]... st you say there was no time before the creation, now you say there was time. Which is it?[/b]

No I don't expect someone to be a mind reader, but the meaning of
what I said seemed obvious to me. God is the beginning and the end,
the first and the last. We know God had to exist before time could be
measured because He created the clock to measure it. We say God
existed in eternity past. It is an infinite past as far as we know. You
might like to call this eternity past by the name "time", but technically,
time is a measurement and eternity can't be measured. The point I was
making about the scientific theory is that it was not necessary for God
to create space when He created the universe. Space is nothingness.
I am not referring to the atmosphere, etc. that occupy space. So it is
the measurement of time that became available with the creation of the
universe to occupy the emptiness of space.

Originally posted by RJHinds
No I don't expect someone to be a mind reader, but the meaning of
what I said seemed obvious to me. God is the beginning and the end,
the first and the last. We know God had to exist before time could be
measured because He created the clock to measure it. We say God
existed in eternity past. It is an infinite past as far as we know. You
might like ...[text shortened]... e that became available with the creation of the
universe to occupy the emptiness of space.

Well you have one thing totally wrong: Space is not just emptiness. Space is more like a real substance, pliable and compressible, stretchable like taffy, it even makes waves. You need to really update your knowledge of space.

Originally posted by RJHinds
No I don't expect someone to be a mind reader, but the meaning of
what I said seemed obvious to me.

Well it wasn't obvious to me, and my lack of insight into your way of thinking does not make me 'silly'.

God is the beginning and the end,
the first and the last. We know God had to exist before time could be
measured because He created the clock to measure it. We say God
existed in eternity past. It is an infinite past as far as we know. You
might like to call this eternity past by the name "time", but technically,
time is a measurement and eternity can't be measured.
But that doesn't make sense at all. You cant seem to make up your mind whether time only exists when it can be measured, and whether or not time existed prior to the universe. It doesn't even make sense to talk of prior, then claim that no measurement to prove it is prior can actually be taken.

The point I was making about the scientific theory is that it was not necessary for God
to create space when He created the universe. Space is nothingness.
Well then we have totally different understandings of what the word 'space' means. I hope you realise that when a scientist says 'space' he does not mean nothingness, he is referring to the spacial dimensions. Most importantly, the space of the universe was near zero, just after the big bang, and remains finite to this day.

Originally posted by sonhouse
Well you have one thing totally wrong: Space is not just emptiness. Space is more like a real substance, pliable and compressible, stretchable like taffy, it even makes waves. You need to really update your knowledge of space.

Have you ever seen anyone stretch space? The Holy Bible says God
stretched out the heavens, not space. God made the heavens, He did
not make empty space. So you need to stop paying attention to these
ignorant scientist, who make up wierd things to explain their weird
ideas. Space is not pliable or stretchable like putty.