Time travel and God

Originally posted by twhitehead
I have thought about it, and you are still wrong. Yes the statements in your post are mostly correct and I agree that a statement is true based on its context (its context is part of the statement). However that is not what you were claiming. You were claiming that statements can be both true and false and that is incoherent nonsense.

I have not claime ...[text shortened]... he believes he is making.

Calling on vague references to relativity wont get you out of it.

He has only one possible future now for us but for him back then there were many possible futures in theory.

Originally posted by knightmeister
He does not have "perfect foresight" as you imagine. God can only see the future choices that Hitler makes. If Hitler does not exist and doesn't make those choices then he can't know because those choices will not be made.


Why does everyone keep imagining that God can "foresee" things as if he lives along our timeline. He does not "foresee" what ...[text shortened]... orrow" , except for him it's not tomorrow , he's already in tomorrow watching you.

First of all, I don't see how it matters. If he knows the following:

If Hitler exists, Hitler will not choose to serve me.

Then one might ask why would God create Hitler in the first place, knowing full well all the consequences of that action?
I have my own response to this, but I wonder what yours would be.


Second, and perhaps even more interestingly, are you saying that your god is absolutely restricted from knowing the outcomes arising from a counterfactual (i.e., off-equilibrium) decisions?

For instance, Harry could choose A or B. Harry chose A. God knew that Harry would choose A and all the consequences of A. God knew that Harry would not choose B, but does not know any of the consequences that would have arisen if Harry had chosen B.

Is that what you are saying? It seems it is. If so, then might I point out that we as humans know at least some of the consequences of counterfactual choices. A child chooses not to stick its hand in a fire, but I know that if it did a certain string of events would happen. For instance that child's skin would burn. That child would pull its hand out of the fire. It would cry in pain.

Surely your god knows all this as well? If so, then he knows at least some consequences of counterfactual decisions. How much does he know? Only as much a human? Perhaps more? If he knows the entire state of things at any moment, why couldn't he deduce the consequences of any possible action?

Originally posted by telerion
First of all, I don't see how it matters. If he knows the following:

If Hitler exists, Hitler will not choose to serve me.

Then one might ask why would God create Hitler in the first place, knowing full well all the consequences of that action?
I have my own response to this, but I wonder what yours would be.


Second, and perhaps even more inte ...[text shortened]... tate of things at any moment, why couldn't he deduce the consequences of any possible action?

Then one might ask why would God create Hitler in the first place, knowing full well all the consequences of that action?
I have my own response to this, but I wonder what yours would be. ---telerion--

You miss the point utterly and completely, he cannot know the consequences of creating Hitler unless he actually creates him. Hitler and his future will not exist unless he is created , so if God does not create him then he cannot know what the outcome will be. For example , if you die tonight then God cannot know what your future will be or might have been because you simply will not exist tomorrow. ....and if you don't exist neither will your future. God will be none the wiser.

Originally posted by telerion
First of all, I don't see how it matters. If he knows the following:

If Hitler exists, Hitler will not choose to serve me.

Then one might ask why would God create Hitler in the first place, knowing full well all the consequences of that action?
I have my own response to this, but I wonder what yours would be.


Second, and perhaps even more inte tate of things at any moment, why couldn't he deduce the consequences of any possible action?

For instance, Harry could choose A or B. Harry chose A. God knew that Harry would choose A and all the consequences of A. God knew that Harry would not choose B, but does not know any of the consequences that would have arisen if Harry had chosen B. ---telerion----


No not really , God is intelligent enough to make very good guesses about what Harry might choose and what the consequences of Harry choosing B or A might be.

The point is that (and take a deep breath here) God cannot know what Harry chooses unless Harry actually chooses it. In one real sense God cannot know whether Harry will choose A or B because Harry is free to choose either. However , the flipside of this is that the moment that Harry chooses is not in the "future" for God but has already happened in the past for God. This sounds nonsense to us because we are trapped in time but if you are not trapped in time then it's very different.

You see God could deduce perfectly exactly what all possible choices we will make (and consequences) will be. But the only way this is possible is by creating automatons who have no ability to surprise or go their own way. Infact , by putting himself in a position of unknowing God has done something amazing. He has given his creation the ability to think and act for itself . That takes skill.

Originally posted by knightmeister
A potential future might be a future that could exist but doesn't. It's impossible to bump into a potential future because if it became real it would not be potential anymore.

I suppose it's like quantum uncertainty. A quantum particle could be said to have many potential futures but only one of them actually comes into existence. If you agree with ...[text shortened]... e happened but didn't. The problem is we only get to know that future that became a reality.

And here lies my whole argument - and the flaw in yours.
You say 'could exist but doesn't'. What does that mean? Either it exists or doesn't exist in the large 'whole timeline' scale. There is no 'could' or 'couldn't'.

The easiest way to visualize it is via the computer program analogy.
Let me take you through it, and I want to know which parts you do not understand.

1. A computer program cannot generate a random number without external input.

2. External input is dependent on context. By this I mean that on each run of the program, different random numbers might be inserted, and therefore different outcomes may result. But on any given run, only one outcome may result.

3. So if we know the context ie the computer program has been run and recorded, with a given random number as the input then the input ceases to be random. The point at which the 'random' number was inserted, which was, prior to the run, a 'choice', ceases to be a choice.

4. When we look at the generic program in isolation without reference to a given context or 'run' then we see 'choices' where random number input is possible and where we can correctly say there are multiple 'potential futures'.

5. However, if we look at the program in context, ie on a recorded run, there are no 'choices' and to talk of 'potential futures' is wrong, as the did not occur on this run.

6. To take the analogy back to reality, if we are part of a single unique run, then to talk about potential futures is to pretend the existence or possibility of multiple runs and therefore meaningless in this context.

7. Either there are multiple runs - and your God model is therefore wrong - or your talk of free will and potential futures is incoherent.

Originally posted by telerion
First of all, I don't see how it matters. If he knows the following:

If Hitler exists, Hitler will not choose to serve me.

Then one might ask why would God create Hitler in the first place, knowing full well all the consequences of that action?
I have my own response to this, but I wonder what yours would be.


Second, and perhaps even more inte ...[text shortened]... tate of things at any moment, why couldn't he deduce the consequences of any possible action?

Then one might ask why would God create Hitler in the first place, knowing full well all the consequences of that action?
I have my own response to this, but I wonder what yours would be.---TELERION-------------------

My response would be incredulous laughter!
If God does not create Hitler then what hitler does in 1939 will never happen and God will not know "full well" anything at all. He cannot know a future that does not exist!!!! The future of Hitler has to exist for God to know it. If hitler is not there in 1939 making the choices he does then God cannot watch or know those choices (because they won't exist).

If you created a robot then you might be able to predict the future course of it's actions and decide not to create it. However, if you create a free man you might not be able to predict anything for certain and you would have to wait and see.

God cannot "jump ahead" to see what the results of him creating Hitler will be and then decide to "uncreate" him in the first place because the only way Hitler's future can exist is if he is created by God. If God does not create Hitler and he goes and looks at 1939 he will find that Hitler is not there at all , so he will be none the wiser. He either creates Hitler and then sees what Hitler does in 1939 or he doesn't bother and 1939 does not happen and he doesn't know.

Originally posted by knightmeister
My response would be incredulous laughter!
If God does not create Hitler then what hitler does in 1939 will never happen and God will not know "full well" anything at all. He cannot know a future that does not exist!!!! The future of Hitler has to exist for God to know it. If hitler is not there in 1939 making the choices he does then God cannot watc ...[text shortened]... itler does in 1939 or he doesn't bother and 1939 does not happen and he doesn't know.

So Gods omnipotence has major flaws! Thats very interesting. Essentially you are saying:
1. God cannot predict the results of his own creations.
2. God cannot interfere with his own creations based on knowledge of future events within those creations.

So. According to you, although God may know what you may decide to do tomorrow, he cannot use that information to assist you or influence you in any way.

Originally posted by twhitehead
So Gods omnipotence has major flaws! Thats very interesting. Essentially you are saying:
1. God cannot predict the results of his own creations.
2. God cannot interfere with his own creations based on knowledge of future events within those creations.

So. According to you, although God may know what you may decide to do tomorrow, he cannot use that information to assist you or influence you in any way.

The fact that God's creations (us) have free will would mean logically that God would not be able to "predict" what we will do because if he could do that precisely then he would have created robots with no free will. He can only predict with precision a creation over which he has total control but in Christian theology he does not have total control over us because he has made us sentient choosing beings.

God could and does interfere with time (eg Jesus changed the course of history) but he cannot change our futures if our future is what we choose to do , without taking away our freedom. If God chooses to create Hitler and then Hitler does bad stuff is done there's no uncreating Hitler. 1939 exists and that's all there is to it. God could not know about Hitler in 1939 unless Hitler in 1939 exists. If Hitler does not exist what can God know about the free choices of a being that does not exist?

Originally posted by knightmeister
The fact that God's creations (us) have free will would mean logically that God would not be able to "predict" what we will do because if he could do that precisely then he would have created robots with no free will. He can only predict with precision a creation over which he has total control but in Christian theology he does not have total control o ...[text shortened]... ler does not exist what can God know about the free choices of a being that does not exist?

So Gods interference in time - such as Jesus for example - is blind tinkering as far as God is concerned. He did not know what effect it would have on us or our futures?

Originally posted by twhitehead
So Gods interference in time - such as Jesus for example - is blind tinkering as far as God is concerned. He did not know what effect it would have on us or our futures?

I would not say it was blind tinkering at all but also I wouild not say that God could predict the outcome. It was done with a purpose in mind and it was probably anticipated by God that many would respond to Jesus , but also that some would not. But no, he did not know exactly who would respond until they did respond.

(use of words "would" and " until" are metaphorical obviously)

Originally posted by knightmeister
I would not say it was blind tinkering at all but also I wouild not say that God could predict the outcome. It was done with a purpose in mind and it was probably anticipated by God that many would respond to Jesus , but also that some would not. But no, he did not know exactly who would respond until they did respond.

(use of words "would" and " until" are metaphorical obviously)

But since his actions cannot ever depend on feedback from the future, we can conclude that:
1. He cannot prophesy based on his knowledge of the future.
2. His knowledge of tomorrow is irrelevant and no different from the knowledge you will have of it next week.
3. For him or you to claim that he has said knowledge is in fact a form of slight of hand as, as far as we are concerned, in this time line, that knowledge is as good as useless and therefore we could equally say he does not have such knowledge.

Originally posted by twhitehead
But since his actions cannot ever depend on feedback from the future, we can conclude that:
1. He cannot prophesy based on his knowledge of the future.
2. His knowledge of tomorrow is irrelevant and no different from the knowledge you will have of it next week.
3. For him or you to claim that he has said knowledge is in fact a form of slight of hand as ...[text shortened]... wledge is as good as useless and therefore we could equally say he does not have such knowledge.

RESPONSE---

1. He cannot prophesy based on his knowledge of the future.---whitey----

Why? A prophecy of something that is predestined is something different because that's when God decides that something IS going to happen because he specifically wills it or there is a reason he wants it to be known. He is tinkering .



2. His knowledge of tomorrow is irrelevant and no different from the knowledge you will have of it next week. ---whitey----

The point of his knowledge is not to do party tricks but so that he may know the intimate details of all of our lives and life choices. He has to know ALL of our life in order to know us and judge us fairly.


3. For him or you to claim that he has said knowledge is in fact a form of slight of hand as, as far as we are concerned, in this time line, that knowledge is as good as useless and therefore we could equally say he does not have such knowledge.---whitey----

Isaiah might disagree with you there ,but even if you are right it 's still a different argument. The debate is about whether it's theoretically possible if there are dimensions beyond or outside time (like eternity) . The question of whether the knowledge is relevant or not is another thread.