Originally posted by divegeester
OK my friend.
I disagree wholeheartedly with the trinity doctrine and with your claiming I was being glib.
There is no such thing as the Eternal Son anywhere in the bible. The holy spirit is not to receive worship (but to enable it) and therefore cannot be co-equal. We don't need the scripture references as we both know them.
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I disagree wholeheartedly with the trinity doctrine and with your claiming I was being glib.
There is no such thing as the Eternal Son anywhere in the bible. The holy spirit is not to receive worship (but to enable it) and therefore cannot be co-equal. We don't need the scripture references as we both know them.
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This line of exchange is likely to lead more into the doctrinal basis of the Trinity. (It is also likely to lead to some long verbose posts).
Two complaints above:
1.) There is no eternal Son in the Bible
2.) The Holy SPirit is never to receive worshipped.
Allow me to take #2 first. It depends upon what you happen to mean by "worship".
In John chapter four to worship the Father in spirit and in truth is to drink of the living water of the Spirit of God. To "drink" the Spirit in as a "beverage" to quench a man's spiritual thirst, is worship.
If you are famished for water in the desert and I place before you, on a table, a large glass of nice clear water, it would be foolish for you to bow down to it, sing a few hymns to it, and prostrate yourself before it in homage. But if you took the glass and DRANK of it to quench your thirst, this would be most vital to your enjoyment and survival.
When you protest "Oh, But we are never suppose to worship the Holy Spirit" I regard this as religious nonsensical talk. Read carefully John ch. 4's words.
"Jesus answered and said to her, Everyone who drinks of this water shall thirst again, But whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall by no means thirst forever; but the water that I will give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into eternal life." (John 4:13,14)
After dealing with the woman's need to confess her sins, He goes back to the same subject of the thirst quenching salvation and says.
"God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truthfulness." (v.24)
God in totality is Spirit. The nature of the complete Triune God is Spirit. To worship God the Spirit man must use his human spirit which is of the same nature as God is. This co-mingling of the human spirit with God Who is Spirit is like the drinking of living water. In fact the initial drink "installs" God the Spirit into the innermost part of man. And the issue of this installation is that the Spirit as living water will spring up into the whole being of the worshipper, into
"eternal life".
The enjoyment of God the Spirit is worship. And it is the worship in truthfulness that the Father desires.
This word was given to instruct the Samaritan woman regarding her need to exercise her human spirit to contact God the Spirit. To contact God the Spirit with the human spirit is to drink of the living water, and to drink of the living water is to render real worship to God.
The same theme is persued in First Corinthians by Paul:
"For also in one Spirit we were all baptized into one Body ... and were all given to DRINK one Spirit" (See 1 Cor. 12:13 my emphasis)
The Holy Spirit is the final stage of God REACHING man. He is to be received within as a thirst quenching beverage. The Christians are baptized into Him and made to drink Him in. What we are immersed into is also the drink that we take into ourselves. This drinking of the one divine Holy Spirit certainly is a worship too.
If I get together with a Christian brother and we enjoy the indwelling Holy Spirit by "drinking" Him in, that will be a wonderful time of worship.
I think you're saying "the Holy Spirit is not to receive worship" seeks to relegate the life giving Spirit to a purely objectve relic of some kind rather than the divine life imparting "drink" the disciples are plunged into and must imbib into themselves.
However a regenerated Christian enjoys the Spirit of God flowing in him, "watering" him, quenching his inner thirst, be it by whispering prayers, calling on His name, singing to the Lord, or turning the heart to the Lord while working or driving, is real worship in spirit and in truth.
Your #1 complains that the Son is not eternal.
The prophecy of
Isaiah 9:6 says that the Son given will be called
"Eternal Father".
"For a child is born to us, A son is given to us; And the government Is upon His shoulder; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace"
The child born is the eternal Mighty God. And the Son given is the incarnation of the Eternal Father. So the Son is eternal and He is incarnated.
The Apostle John says the Son of God is the life which was with the Father.
" ... That which was from the beginning, ... the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us." (1 John 1:1,2)
As eternal as the Father is the divine life which was with the Father also is. If the Son is not eternal then the Eternal Father does not have an eternal life, which is absurd.
The Word was with God. And the Word WAS God.
(John 1:1). As eternal as God is the Word Who was with God and was God is.
And the writer of the book of
Hebrews emphasizes from the typology of Melchesidek, that the Son is eternal with no beginning or end of days:
"[Melchisedec, king of righteousness, ... king of peace ... Being without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but likened to the Son of God, abides a priest perpetually." (See Hebrews 7:1-3)
The Father is eternal (Isaiah 9:6).
The Son is eternal (Heb. 7:3).
The Spirit is eternal (Heb. 9:14).