The Bible is a mess!

I mean, base your life on a political tool that can't even decide on how its principal baddie dies...

"And he cast down the pieces of silver into the temple and departed, and went out and hanged himself." (Matt. 27:5)

Or...

"And falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all of his bowels gushed out." (Acts 1:18)

Hmmmmm

😉

Originally posted by Squelchbelch
I mean, base your life on a political tool that can't even decide on how its principal baddie dies...

"And he cast down the pieces of silver into the temple and departed, and went out and hanged himself." (Matt. 27:5)

Or...

"And falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all of his bowels gushed out." (Acts 1:18)

Hmmmmm

😉

Different oral traditions. Not really surprising.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
Different oral traditions. Not really surprising.

That's a spurious non-argument!
They are in the same book & if you believe The Bible a Divine work (most Christians don't these days) then these contradictions shouldn't occur.

Ok then, how about the most blatant case of the Bible getting its story screwed - Genesis & the Order of Creation.
In chapter one of Genesis, God is said to have created plants on the 3rd day (Genesis 1:12-13), with animals being created on the 5th and 6th day (Genesis 1:20-25). Man was made after all these, on the 6th day (Genesis 1:26-31). But in the next chapter the Bible contradicts itself by explicitly noting that man was created before the plants and animals.

Animals & birds before man
Genesis 1:24-26
And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so. God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

Man before Animals & birds
Genesis 2:18-19
Then the LORD God said, "It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him." So out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name.

Language problems again I suppose...

Originally posted by Squelchbelch
That's a spurious non-argument!
They are in the same book & if you believe The Bible a Divine work (most Christians don't these days) then these contradictions shouldn't occur.

Ok then, how about the most blatant case of the Bible getting its story screwed - Genesis & the Order of Creation.
In chapter one of Genesis, God is said to have created p ...[text shortened]... alled every living creature, that was its name.[/i]

Language problems again I suppose...

Just because you bind Newton's Principia Mathematica and Einstein's Special Relativity paper in the same book does not mean they have to be consistent with each other (even if they are both about physics).

The example you gave of the two accounts of Judas's death aren't even from the same book in the Bible. With the Genesis accounts, again, most scholars believe they came from two different oral traditions. So my argument still stands.

Just because something is divinely inspired doesn't mean it's divinely dictated (as, for instance, the Vedas and the Quran are supposed to be). Contradictions in terms of people and places can most certainly occur and are acceptable -- unless you're reading something that wasn't intended to be a history textbook (as modern historians understand it) as one.

Please explain Genesis contradictions (same book)
Thanks,
Squelch

Originally posted by Squelchbelch
Please explain Genesis contradictions (same book)
Thanks,
Squelch

I thought I just did -- different oral traditions again (IIRC, Elohistic vs. Yahwistic).

That's the weakest argument I've ever heard!
Blatant contradictions about God's most impressive feat in the first chapter of His book & you put it down to language problems!
Hahaha.
😀

Let's just pick 'n mix & dis-regard anything that doesn't seem err... correct then shall we?

After all the Bible also contains passages that condone slavery, show that God commands murder (including the slaying of children) & also show that God is capable of deception.

In fact, lets just disregard the lot eh?

Originally posted by Squelchbelch
That's the weakest argument I've ever heard!
Blatant contradictions about God's most impressive feat in the first chapter of His book & you put it down to language problems!
Hahaha.
😀

Let's just pick 'n mix & dis-regard anything that doesn't seem err... correct then shall we?

After all the Bible also contains passages that condone slavery, sho ...[text shortened]... & also show that God is capable of deception.

In fact, lets just disregard the lot eh?

No - that was the weakest set of arguments I've heard in a while.

The Bible is a collection of books from several genres of literature written across a relatively long period of history in a cultural context different to modern ones. The common denominator in all the books of the Bible is that they are intended to highlight God's relationship with mankind and the moral teaching needed to reconcile the two. It's not intended to be a cosmology, biology or history textbook -- nor did the listeners to the books of the Bible think it was. If you can't see this simple fact about the Bible, then you can have all the fun you want chasing strawmen.

Originally posted by Squelchbelch
That's the weakest argument I've ever heard!
Blatant contradictions about God's most impressive feat in the first chapter of His book & you put it down to language problems!
Hahaha.
😀

Let's just pick 'n mix & dis-regard anything that doesn't seem err... correct then shall we?

After all the Bible also contains passages that condone slavery, sho ...[text shortened]... & also show that God is capable of deception.

In fact, lets just disregard the lot eh?

I'm assuming you are an atheist. Did you just recently become one? Maybe after being xian for a long time? You've got that ex-fundy thing going on.

Originally posted by Squelchbelch
I mean, base your life on a political tool that can't even decide on how its principal baddie dies...

"And he cast down the pieces of silver into the temple and departed, and went out and hanged himself." (Matt. 27:5)

Or...

"And falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all of his bowels gushed out." (Acts 1:18)

Hmmmmm

😉

They are not contradicting each other, they are giving different versions, and that is much different. For a contradiction to have occured, one of the versions would need to explicity state something which is directly refuted by the other version...

eg...

version 1 Squelch has red trainers and 3 ears

version 2 Squelch has green trainers and does not have 3 ears


With regards to the trainers, Squelch muight actually have two different pairs of trainers, as neither version is explicit on that point. However, with regards to the amount of ears that he [you] posseses, one version directly contradicts the other.

Originally posted by Mr Average
They are not contradicting each other, they are giving different versions, and that is much different. For a contradiction to have occured, one of the versions would need to explicity state something which is directly refuted by the other version...

eg...

version 1 Squelch has red trainers and 3 ears

version 2 Squelch has green trainers and ...[text shortened]... egards to the amount of ears that he [you] posseses, one version directly contradicts the other.

Genesis order of Creation?

Originally posted by Squelchbelch
Genesis order of Creation?

Please elaborate...

Animals & birds before man
Genesis 1:24-26
And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so. God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

Man before Animals & birds
Genesis 2:18-19
Then the LORD God said, "It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him." So out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name.

Originally posted by Squelchbelch
That's the weakest argument I've ever heard!
Blatant contradictions about God's most impressive feat in the first chapter of His book & you put it down to language problems!
Hahaha.
😀

Let's just pick 'n mix & dis-regard anything that doesn't seem err... correct then shall we?

After all the Bible also contains passages that condone slavery, sho ...[text shortened]... & also show that God is capable of deception.

In fact, lets just disregard the lot eh?

The days that things were created on, whether birds came before man, and the physical manner of Judas' death are all trivial matters. All they demonstrate is that the bible is not the literal word of god (as he would not contradict himself). But no savvy christian really believes that anyway. They could be different oral traditions, as LH says. But they're ultimately trivial because what day birds were created on is not an integral part of the christian dogma. They're merely peripheral elements.

A much more serious criticism (as you alluded) is the copious amount of divinely inflicted and divinely inspired cruelty in the bible. A quick glance at some of the threads in this forum will show that a major point of contention is how the christians try to reconcile such wanton cruelty with the presence of a supposedly morally perfect and all-loving god. This is an item that goes to the very heart of christian dogma. The Problem of Evil threatens to unravel christianity entirely, while inconsistancy with the timing of the creation of birds is nit-picking by comparison.

"Evil" does not exist. It is merely a construct of value judgements based on your flavour of modern morality.
For instance, you would have been considered an evil heretic for questioning the Bible in the way you have just done, only a couple of hundred years ago.

As for order of Creation being a trivial matter... well I'm not a Christian so I wouldn't dare speak of such things on behalf of others, but...

If I tell you in a conversation about how I built my house, brick by brick, then lovingly landscaped the garden to suit the house, then - in the very next sentence - tell you about how I tended the garden first, you'd think I was a lunatic.
You would also be very unlikely to trust much of anything else I was to tell you at a later stage.