Originally posted by Taoman
Well, below aresome of the obvious ones, including the one I have already referred to.
They all connect to how Jesus is portrayed in the New testament writings and how we approach them. Are his words just wise words of a powerful teacher, or are they the very words of God?
Here's the connections:
-the nominating of sacred scriptures as the only infallible erful for those that see more clearly what they were on about.
Thank you for your thoughts.
Well, below aresome of the obvious ones, including the one I have already referred to.
They all connect to how Jesus is portrayed in the New testament writings and how we approach them. Are his words just wise words of a powerful teacher, or are they the very words of God?
It should be textural criticism which makes "added latter" sayings "obvious" (or at least questionable) myth-built sayings. When textural critics can prove that some copyist added a line not found in most earlier manuscripts then we have some ground to suspect - "Now this line seems to be a latter addition. Perhaps we should examine its meaning to see if it appears to be a myth-building amendation to the New Testament."
I don't think I would startt by supposing hard to believe sayings of the supernatural are [bi]"obviously"[/i] myth-builders. Let's look at your samples.
Here's the connections:
-the nominating of sacred scriptures as the only infallible word of God, no less. This is an authoritarian means of maintaining control, used by a number of religions.
When Jesus had His earthly ministry,
"the word of God" was the canon of the Hebrew Bible. The New Testament had not been written by then.
Now it is evident that religious power structures were in place and abused their authority. Such abuse caused real tension, opposition, and eventual execution of Christ. However, Christ's response to the problem was not to deny the infallibility of God's word (the Hebrew Bible).
Christ upheld the Hebrew canon -
"the Scripture cannot be broken" (John 10:35) .
"For truly I say to you, Until heaven and earth pass away, one iota or one serif shall by no means pass away from the law until all come to pass." (Matt. 5:18)
Jesus Christ upheld the divine authority of the Hebrew Bible. It did not stop Him from giving scathing denounciation of the religionists, ie.
Matthew 23.
Jesus also made His OWN words on equal level (and sometimes higher) than the word of the Old Testament. Compare:
"Until heaven and earth pass away, one iota or one serif shall by no means pass away ..." (Matt.5:18a)
"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words shall by no means pass away." (Matt. 24:35)
Very much could be said about this. Suffice it now to say that Jesus upheld that Old Testament as the infallible word of God. And He added His own words as of equal or greater significance.
"You have heard of the ancients that it was said ... but I say unto you ..."
While abuse of the Bible by ambitious religionists was a problem then as well as today, denying that God has spoken in His word has never been posed by seekers of God as the solution. Saturation with the Holy Spirit and a living, "organic" and intimate fellowship with Christ and God is the only remedy.
it doesn't work, as man will ever seek the inner freedom to understand the deep things of life nevertheless, hence the sects and branches of all authoritarian religions.
The word of God and the living Spirit of God bring this freedom. We do not turn against the word of God thinking that that is a solution. Christ did not. He provided the Spirit that gives divine life. So we need the word and the living Spirit of Christ.
- the virgin birth (a common theme in the religions of the day, a particularly gnostic ones).
Though the New Testament does not speak as much about the virgin birth as it does about the resurrection, it does mention it. And it is not a myth-building addition.
It is rather the fulfillment of more ancient prophesy
(Isaiah 7:14). If Christ's physical father had indeed been
Joseph He would have been immediately disqualified from being the Messianic descendent of David.
This is because
Joseph the carpentar of Nazareth, was a descendent of David but through the line that came through David's son Solomon. And God through the prophet Jeremiah terminated the possibility of any descendent of David through that line could be king of Israel
(Jeremiah 22:28-30)
"According to the prophecy in Jer. 22:28-30, none of Jeconiah's descendants would inherit the throne of David. If Christ had been a direct descendent of Jeconiah, He would not have been entitled to the throne of David. Although Jer. 22:28-30 says that all the descendants of Jeconiah are excluded from the thone of David, Jer. 23:5 says that God would raise up a Shoot to David, a King who would reign and prosper. This Shoot is Christ. This prophecy confirms that Christ would be the descendant of David, although not a direct descendant of Jeconiah, and would inherit the throne." [Footnote 11(2) of Matt. 1:11, Recovery Version Bible ]
Not to discuss this at length, Jesus was a descendant of David through Mary but not through her husband Joseph. The VIRGIN BIRTH of Jesus is the ONLY way that Christ could fulfill the prophecy to be the Shoot of David yet also not be of the line of the discontinued descedents from Jeconiah, a descendent of Solomon. Yet through David's other son
Nathan He COULD be the Messianic inheriter of David's throne through
Mary.
The virgin birth is a miraculous and marvelous way in which God kept His promise of a Messianic King of Israel.
- the many mythic elements of the announcement, three kings, angels appearing to shepherds etc...
I hope we are talking about what is written in the Bible and not religious art work, religious fiction, Hollywood, or Christmas chorals which may not accurately refect what is written in the Bible.
The New Testament never mentions three kings. It mentions a plural group of royal dignataries (kings perhaps) as the magi. We are only told they were plural in number. We are told that they brought three GIFTS. Of course two kings can bring three gifts. And five kings or eight kings or twelve kings can also bring three gifts (gold, frankincense, and myrrh)
(Matt. 2:11)
Three GIFTS brought by plural kings is what is written. You say "three kings" based on some traditional artwork or perhaps song.
I believe that the plural (magi) of wise men came from the east just as it says. And the "star" which they refered to they could have thought was related to the Gentile prophet's prophecy in the Old Testament about the star of
Numbers 24:17 a prediction given by the prophet Balaam.
- the resurrection of two dead men, (Jesus and Lazarus).
Of course the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead is so CENTRAL to the New Testament that I will hardly embark on a debate about it in this post.
Minus the resurrection of Christ there is no Christian Gospel and the Christians faith is totally in vain.
That the resurrection is a latter myth-building addendum to the NT documents is ludicrous, absurd, and frankly ignorant. I think I already proved to you that the earliest NT documents written BEFORE the four Gospels portray the traditional preaching of the Gospel to INCLUDE this central tenet - Christ rose from the dead.
Why should it surprise you that a person like Jesus would even be able to overcome death ? It is consistant with the power of His personality and words.
- miracle stories of walking on water, changing water into wine etc. I avoid the healing ones, as such do happen in my opinion in numerous religions, particularly surrounding men and women who have a powerful psychological effect on others. . Of course there are frauds too.
I accept all these stories as a common way of pre-scientific periods and in other religions to express the profound effect and honoring of the person and message. The same has happened to Buddha and others.
That is all the time I have this morning. But I see generally, that you have a anti-supernatural bias and cannot believe these miracles.
While we don't have a miracle at every turn in the NT we do have some significant ones. And God performed them. Remember God
"created the heavens and the earth" in
the beginning. God has the power and the authority to do a sign or miracle if it establishes something He wants to accomplish.
But to believe that God raised Christ from the dead is a crucial part of being saved.
"The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that is, the word of the faith which we proclaim, That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; For with the heart there is believing unto righteousness, and with the mouth there is confession unto salvation." (Rom. 10:8-10)
So if you want to be saved from eternal perdition, from eternal judgment for your sins, you must confess Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead.
This is the word Jesus Himself spoke:
"And He said to them, These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all the things written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and Psalms concerning Me must be fulfilled. Then He opened their mind to understand the Scriptures; And He said to them,
Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise up from the dead on the third day, and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things." (Luke 24:42-48)
God will judge the world by the Man Whom He has raised from the dead, His Son Jesus Christ.