02 Jun '09 13:54>
Originally posted by duecerthe 2 statments are compatable, but if you read them difrently, could you explain
no... thats not whe xhe said. I believe xhe said our acts bear witness... different thing entirely
Originally posted by Rajk999by their fruits ye shall know them...yes? all good trees bear good fruit..correct? works are the fruit, the outward sign of our inward sanctification.
Christ was crystal clear in what He expects from us. I appreciate your problem though. Its not an easy matter to do what Christ said to do to get salvation. Its easy to live in a fools paradise and convince yourself that proclaiming your faith is all thats required.
Originally posted by duecerno they don't, works spring from the application of biblical knowledge and belief follows the thing that is heard, this is something quite different, for there are different kinds of works, James i am sure highlights dead works, but it is convenient for armchair Christians to adopt this type of reasoning.
by their fruits ye shall know them...yes? all good trees bear good fruit..correct? works are the fruit, the outward sign of our inward sanctification.
As for salvation : In John 3:16 Jesus says, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.”
belief is all that is necessary, works spring [b]from that belief[/b]
Originally posted by robbie carrobiethe argument here seems to be one of causation vs. corellation. On this matter we will have to disagree. Its like the question: which came first, the chicken or the egg? depends on your point of view
no they don't, works spring from the application of biblical knowledge and belief follows the thing that is heard, this is something quite different, for there are different kinds of works, James i am sure highlights dead works, but it is convenient for armchair Christians to adopt this type of reasoning.
Originally posted by duecerwell at least this is something, that we agree to disagree, now back to the trinity discussion, for i am about to bring my pièce de résistance, platonic, Egyptian, Babylonian, Hindu and a whole host of other polytheistic cultures from whence your beloved trinity sprung.
the argument here seems to be one of causation vs. corellation. On this matter we will have to disagree. Its like the question: which came first, the chicken or the egg? depends on your point of view
Originally posted by duecerThis thing called brainwashing is a hell of a dangerous thing. You are like that man who is so brainwashed by his wife into believing that she loves him and she is faithful, that when he and his friends caught them having sex, the man tells his friends .. " ... thats ME on top of my wife ... " ... 😀
by their fruits ye shall know them...yes? all good trees bear good fruit..correct? works are the fruit, the outward sign of our inward sanctification.
As for salvation : In John 3:16 Jesus says, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.”
belief is all that is necessary, works spring [b]from that belief[/b]
Originally posted by Rajk999again...since you did not read my last post, its an argument over perspective. Real Christians will do good works, wether by causation or corellation. You say that the works come first, I say the faith come first.
This thing called brainwashing is a hell of a dangerous thing. You are like that man who is so brainwashed by his wife into believing that she loves him and she is faithful, that when he and his friends caught them having sex, the man tells his friends .. " ... thats ME on top of my wife ... " ... 😀
That entire passage is telling you the same thing I hav ...[text shortened]... h is necessary but is not sufficient. Works therefore are an essential part of ones salvation.
Originally posted by duecerDId I say works come first? Please show me where. Youre the one not understanding or reading.
again...since you did not read my last post, its an argument over perspective. Real Christians will do good works, wether by causation or corellation. You say that the works come first, I say the faith come first.
Can someone who doesn't believe but does all the work "just in case" receive salvation? what if someone has a death bed conversion experience but never has the opportunity to do any works?
Originally posted by Rajk999when you say that works are necessary for salvation, then you say works come first. 1+1=2
DId I say works come first? Please show me where. Youre the one not understanding or reading.
Christ never said works come first, second or third
Christ never said faith comes first, second or third.
Christ never said anything about what causes - correlation or causation.
Christ never said anything about real christians vs not so real christians.
C ...[text shortened]... orks you will not get salvation.
If you choose to add to what Christ said, thats your choice.
Originally posted by duecerChrist said works are necessary. Not me.
when you say that works are necessary for salvation, then you say works come first. 1+1=2
Originally posted by Rajk999Christ does NOT say that works are necessary, but rather by their works you would know them, a subtle difference, but a difference nonetheless
Christ said works are necessary. Not me.
Christ never said anything about works being the outward expression .... whatever. Thats rubbish talk. Thats propaganda.
Small minds like yours are easy prey to that kind of talk.
Originally posted by duecerMatt 7:16 ...Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Christ does NOT say that works are necessary, but rather by their works you would know them, a subtle difference, but a difference nontheless
Originally posted by Rajk999you were a little too fast in response, I edited my remarks as they were an incomplete thought. please read and respond to those.
Matt 7:16 ...Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
[b]19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is ...[text shortened]... DO GOOD WORKS YOU WILL BE CAST INTO THE FIRE.
Wont you say works are necessary for salvation?
Originally posted by Rajk999I say that works come naturally to those who are saved. Those who pay lip service to their faith and show up in church for appearances are not true Christians
Matt 7:16 ...Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
[b]19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is ...[text shortened]... DO GOOD WORKS YOU WILL BE CAST INTO THE FIRE.
Wont you say works are necessary for salvation?
Originally posted by duecerSorry I dont need anyone explaining to me about salvation except Christ. Thanks for the link anyhow.
I say that works come naturally to those who are saved. Those who pay lip service to their faith and show up in church for appearances are not true Christians
edit: Here is a great explanation of faith and works etc...
http://www.biblebb.com/files/macqa/1301-E-10.htm
I think you will enjoy the read.