josephw vs. Atheism

Originally posted by josephw
Atheists and agnostics only please.

I'd like to develop the topic or subject in the following quotes a little bit more. It seems to be a point of contention with those who don't believe in the existence of God, that if the God theists claim exists has omni-powers, then why are conditions on earth so bad.

Leaving aside the idea that the conditions tha ...[text shortened]... r existence and the existence of 'suffering'.

How am I doing so far?

This appears to be devolving into a discussion of the argument from evil/pain/suffering. Having read thru the first 15 posts on this thread, is it agreed by all that evil and suffering exist and/or happen? It would be worthwhile to get that out of the way. But the arguments are well documented elsewhere.

Originally posted by josephw
"Do you have an explanation for why a god allows evil to exist?"

We'll get to that, but first I would like to resolve the first issue. I think I said it plainly enough. There is no logical reason to conclude that because evil exists an omni-powerful God doesn't.

Well the logical conclusion is based on the belief that there is no rational explanation for an omni God allowing evil to exist. Hence if you provide a rational explanation you disprove the claim.

Originally posted by josephw
Atheists and agnostics only please.

I'd like to develop the topic or subject in the following quotes a little bit more. It seems to be a point of contention with those who don't believe in the existence of God, that if the God theists claim exists has omni-powers, then why are conditions on earth so bad.

Leaving aside the idea that the conditions tha ...[text shortened]... r existence and the existence of 'suffering'.

How am I doing so far?

As an agnost I don't believe in the god as you see him. But my disbelief/doubt got little to do with the existence of 'evil' as you name it. We perceive our universe as a dualistic organism. Misery and happiness are part of that dualism. A happy world without misery sounds like a square circle to me.

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"How, pray tell, are we to reconcile these two facts?"

rwingett, are you actually reading my replies? We touched on this just a couple of posts ago. Don't be offended, but you are dissimulating concepts in your mind.


You believe there is no God because evil exists. That is patently illogical. You think you have to reconcile the existence of ev ...[text shortened]... cannot(should not) continue to insist that both evil and God cannot exist simultaneously.[/b]

I'm afraid you'll have to demonstrate how evil can coexist with a "flawless" god. Just asking me to consider it isn't good enough because I am at a loss as how to reconcile the contradiction between them. Unless you can successfully demonstrate otherwise, I'm afraid I have no choice but to go with the assumption that evil and god cannot exist simultaneously.

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"Well, the problem seems pretty straight forward. If a god exists, and if he is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent, then there should be no evil in the world. The fact that there is evil in the world means that god must necessarily lack one (or more) of the 'omni' attributes."

If there is a God with omni-power attributes, then logically He True. But we are growing and changing, and so I believe there is much more to gain.[/b]

If there is a God with omni-power attributes, then logically He would be without flaw. So there must be another logical explanation for why there is 'evil' in the world.
I'm not so sure your first statement need necessarily be the case. One could suppose, without logical contradiction, that the maximality of some god's attributes induces a flaw by way of the interaction between these attributes where there would be none if at least one of its attributes were not omni. Furthermore you are implicitly assuming that if there be a god then it necessarily follows it be an omni-god - this also is not justified (and far less justified than my first contention).

Originally posted by rwingett
I'm afraid you'll have to demonstrate how evil can coexist with a "flawless" god. Just asking me to consider it isn't good enough because I am at a loss as how to reconcile the contradiction between them. Unless you can successfully demonstrate otherwise, I'm afraid I have no choice but to go with the assumption that evil and god cannot exist simultaneously.

Its easy, God permits bad things to happen.

We atheists don't stand a chance when the creationist says, "I don't know what God is doing, so I will just say that God moves in mysterious ways". It is a "catch all" for any illogicality with regard to creationism.

Originally posted by lausey
We atheists don't stand a chance when the creationist says, "I don't know what God is doing, so I will just say that God moves in mysterious ways". It is a "catch all" for any illogicality with regard to creationism.

Actually most thiests don't say "God works in mysterious ways" when it comes to evil and bad things.

Are there any foods that you absolutely hate the taste of? I can't stand pickled beets, regular beets are horrid enough without pickeling them. I luuuuuuv a good steak with a baked potato and some garlic bread. If every meal I ate was steak with baked potato and garlic bread, soon that meal would hold no pleasure for me.

It's winter in North-Eastern USA, When the first snow flies or we get the first cold snap that freezes the lakes and ponds, I look in wonderment at the world around me, and am glad to be alive. By March 1st I am ready to blow my brains out. Luckily spring is just 3 weeks away followed by our hot and humid summer. The first really hot day is great, I want to go to the beach and soak up the sun. By Sept 1st I am hiding in my air conditioned house cursing the sun, and waiting for the cool crisp autumn air, which is followed by winter....

Without darkness we cannot know the joy and usefulness of light, without ying there is only yang. Peace is not peace unless we know war and discord. A world that does not challange us, or that is the same vanilla flavor day in and day out, does not spur on the creative drive of the human spirit. Look at the world around you and its many faults...and be glad you were made (evolved if you prefer) to not merely cope, but to triumph over it.

Originally posted by Doward
Look at the world around you and its many faults...and be glad you were made (evolved if you prefer) to not merely cope, but to triumph over it.

Many of the challenges we face, we do not triumph over.

The phrase "that which does not kill us, makes us stronger" is only useful for things that do not kill us. When it kills us, what is the purpose?

People who give the reasoning you are given, usually refuse to address any examples for which your argument does not work.

Can you do better? Is there not one time in your life where you really suffered and it did not later benefit you in some way? Is there not one bit of pain and suffering that you would rather have done without? I can think of many such instances in my life.

Originally posted by Doward
Actually most thiests don't say "God works in mysterious ways" when it comes to evil and bad things.

Are there any foods that you absolutely hate the taste of? I can't stand pickled beets, regular beets are horrid enough without pickeling them. I luuuuuuv a good steak with a baked potato and some garlic bread. If every meal I ate was steak with baked potat ...[text shortened]... d be glad you were made (evolved if you prefer) to not merely cope, but to triumph over it.

I very much doubt Victoria Climbié would have shared the same view.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Its easy, God permits bad things to happen.

Why would a "flawless" god permit bad things to happen? That doesn't sound flawless to me.

Originally posted by rwingett
Why would a "flawless" god permit bad things to happen? That doesn't sound flawless to me.

Again its very simple. Perfection is relative. Let me qualify my statement, if you please. Sin ensued, sin is simply imperfection, thus at present bad things happen, as a direct consequence of sin. Gods is perfect, exists outside the ravages of time and thus while he remains perfect. The system in which we find ourselves, having been subject to futility, carries the mark of imperfection, thus bad things happen. Its easy to see and perfectly logical to state, that if there was no sin, there would be no imperfection and bad things would not happen.

Originally posted by lausey
I very much doubt Victoria Climbié would have shared the same view.

sizzling retort, your intellect is stunning

Originally posted by twhitehead
Many of the challenges we face, we do not triumph over.

The phrase "that which does not kill us, makes us stronger" is only useful for things that do not kill us. When it kills us, what is the purpose?

People who give the reasoning you are given, usually refuse to address any examples for which your argument does not work.

Can you do better? Is t ...[text shortened]... fering that you would rather have done without? I can think of many such instances in my life.

Many of the challenges we face, we do not triumph over.



Many of the challenges we face, we have not triumph over yet.

Originally posted by Doward
sizzling retort, your intellect is stunning

Aside from your very patronising reply, I would say it is a valid retort. The person I am referring to had no chance in life to triumph over her problems. Along with many people who have only endured suffering in their very short life.