Jesus beginnings....

Originally posted by galveston75
Uhhhhhh the scriptures I just posted. No names are there but who else are they speaking of other then God Jehovah the Father and Jesus the son? Did you read them?

Yes, I read them; but I did not see anything about God creating
anyone.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Yes, I read them; but I did not see anything about God creating
anyone.

God didn't create anyone? What? Of course it's clearly describing God creating the universe, including Jesus. Read Col 1:15 again......
What in your understanding then are these scriptures describing?

Originally posted by galveston75
Uhhhhhh the scriptures I just posted. No names are there but who else are they speaking of other then God Jehovah the Father and Jesus the son? Did you read them?

This is almost the same argument that you try to use against the Holy spirit not being a person because the holy spirit has no specific name.




Manny

Originally posted by menace71
This is almost the same argument that you try to use against the Holy spirit not being a person because the holy spirit has no specific name.




Manny

Then why doesn't it? Why is it's name not important as the other two mentioned at Matt 28: 19 & 20? If it is equally as important as Jesus and Jehovah, why no name? Simple question I would think but then I forget "It's a mystery!"

The Bible’s Viewpoint

Is the Holy Spirit a Person?
WHAT is God’s holy spirit? In its opening words, the Bible speaks of the holy spirit—also rendered “God’s active force”—as “moving to and fro over the surface of the waters.” (Genesis 1:2) In the account of Jesus’ baptism, while God is described as being in “the heavens,” the holy spirit appears “descending like a dove” upon Jesus. (Matthew 3:16, 17) Additionally, Jesus spoke of the holy spirit as a “helper.”—John 14:16.
These and other Bible passages have led some to conclude that the holy spirit is a person, just as God, Jesus, and the angels are individual spirit persons. In fact, for centuries some of the most influential religions of Christendom have attributed personality to the holy spirit. Despite this long-standing doctrine, many church members remain confused, and some even disagree with their religious leaders. For instance, according to a recent survey, 61 percent of those interviewed believe that God’s spirit is “a symbol of God’s presence or power but is not a living entity.” What, though, does the Bible say?
An honest Bible reader cannot help but conclude that the holy spirit differs from official church descriptions of it as a person. Consider the following Bible accounts.
1. When Mary, the mother of Jesus, visited her cousin Elizabeth, the Bible says that the unborn child in Elizabeth’s womb leaped, “and Elizabeth was filled with holy spirit.” (Luke 1:41) Is it reasonable that a person would be “filled” with another person?
2. When John the Baptizer spoke to his disciples about Jesus as the one who would succeed him, John said: “I, for my part, baptize you with water . . . , but the one coming after me is stronger than I am, whose sandals I am not fit to take off. That one will baptize you people with holy spirit.” (Matthew 3:11) John could hardly have been referring to the holy spirit as a person when he spoke of baptizing people with it.
3. While visiting a Roman army officer and his family, the apostle Peter spoke of Jesus as having been anointed by God “with holy spirit and power.” (Acts 10:38) Shortly afterward, “the holy spirit fell upon” the army officer’s household. The account says that many were amazed “because the free gift of the holy spirit was being poured out also upon people of the nations.” (Acts 10:44, 45) Here again, the terms used are inconsistent with the idea of the holy spirit being a person.
It is not unusual for God’s Word to personify things that are not a person. These include wisdom, discernment, sin, death, and undeserved kindness. (Proverbs 8:1–9:6; Romans 5:14, 17, 21; 6:12) Jesus himself said that “wisdom is proved righteous by all its children,” or its good results. (Luke 7:35) Clearly, wisdom is not a person that has literal children! Likewise, the holy spirit is not a person simply because in some instances it is personified.
What Is the Holy Spirit?
In the Bible, God’s holy spirit is identified as God’s power in action. Hence, an accurate translation of the Bible’s Hebrew text refers to God’s spirit as “God’s active force.” (Genesis 1:2) This concept is well supported throughout the Bible.—Micah 3:8; Luke 1:35; Acts 10:38.
Contrary to popular belief, God is not present everywhere at all times. Rather, he dwells in the spirit realm, in an “established place of dwelling,” or residence. (1 Kings 8:39; 2 Chronicles 6:39) The Scriptures also refer to a specific place where God lives and has his “throne.” (1 Kings 22:19; Isaiah 6:1; Daniel 7:9; Revelation 4:1-3) However, from his “established place of dwelling,” he can use his active force to reach out into every corner of both the spirit realm and the physical realm.—Psalm 139:7.
Back in 1879, Bible scholar Charles L. Ives aptly illustrated God’s ability to exercise his power from a fixed location. He wrote: “For example, we say, ‘Open the shutters, and let the sun come into the room.’ We mean, not the real, bodily sun, but the solar ray, that which proceeds from the sun.” Similarly, God has no need to travel to the locations where he intends to use his active force. He simply employs his holy spirit, which can reach to the extremities of creation. Seeing the holy spirit for what it is—God’s powerful active force—can give you confidence that Jehovah will fulfill his promises.

This info does no good if you don't read the scriptures included.

Originally posted by galveston75
God didn't create anyone? What? Of course it's clearly describing God creating the universe, including Jesus. Read Col 1:15 again......
What in your understanding then are these scriptures describing?

To get the meaning of it, you must read it in context.
Read Colossians 1:15-19. "first-born of all creation" can not mean He
was the first created being by God the Father. That does not agree
with the context and would also contradict the rest of scripture.
It means He is the "heir" to all creation. I believe in my explanation
of John chapter 1 somewhere on this forum I already explained A.T.
Robertson's and C.D Dodd position on the meaning and the correct
translation there, which indicates the "Word" was not a created being
for how then could the Word be God. The J.W. organzation leaders
misinterpret and misapply meaning to fit a wrong view of scripture.
Read Hebrews chapter 1 in which God the Father calls His first-born,
"God" and heir to all things and declares that the angles are to worship
His Son. God grants Him the throne that is to last forever and ever.

Originally posted by galveston75
The Bible’s Viewpoint

Is the Holy Spirit a Person?
WHAT is God’s holy spirit? In its opening words, the Bible speaks of the holy spirit—also rendered “God’s active force”—as “moving to and fro over the surface of the waters.” (Genesis 1:2) In the account of Jesus’ baptism, while God is described as being in “the heav ...[text shortened]... ill fulfill his promises.

This info does no good if you don't read the scriptures included.

The translation "god's active force" is a misinterpretation in Genesis by the
J.W. organization to fit there view of scripture. I doubt if you can find any
other translation other than the J.W.'s New World Translation that has that
phrase in place of the "Holy Spirit" or "Spirit of God". It certainly is not
how the authoritative Hebrew scholors would render it. The Holy Spirit is
as much a person, as the Father is a person, and the Son is a person, and
Satan is a person. All of scripture testifies of it. The Holy Spirit is definitely
not just being personified as the J.W. leaders claim.

Originally posted by galveston75
The Bible’s Viewpoint

You mean your viewpoint.

Originally posted by RJHinds
To get the meaning of it, you must read it in context.
Read Colossians 1:15-19. "first-born of all creation" can not mean He
was the first created being by God the Father. That does not agree
with the context and would also contradict the rest of scripture.
It means He is the "heir" to all creation. I believe in my explanation
of John chapter 1 somew ...[text shortened]... s are to worship
His Son. God grants Him the throne that is to last forever and ever.

I'm my fathers first born. What does that mean?

Originally posted by galveston75
I'm my fathers first born. What does that mean?

That depends on what context you are using it. In English words can
have a variety of meaning. As you will see when you look up the
meaning of words. It is the same way in other languages. In Hebrew
customs the first-born son was the heir to all that his father had.
So there is two meanings that come to mind immediately. That is it
could mean simply I am the first-born son of my Father. Daughters
were not included as far as I know. But the way it is worded, even
without any context, I would guess it means I am my fathers heir.

Originally posted by RJHinds
That depends on what context you are using it. In English words can
have a variety of meaning. As you will see when you look up the
meaning of words. It is the same way in other languages. In Hebrew
customs the first-born son was the heir to all that his father had.
So there is two meanings that come to mind immediately. That is it
could mean simply ...[text shortened]... ut the way it is worded, even
without any context, I would guess it means I am my fathers heir.

I think the fact that most first borns are the ones to inherit their Fathers belongings at death is a given that all know. But as in Jesus case what would he inherit as there are no riches in heaven or physical item such as that.
So you know what the First Born title given to Jesus means even though it won't be admitted as that would surely mess up the trinity thing.
I've had many discussions with trinitarians and they usually admit that a lot of it doesn't add up to be truth. But those things that don't add up they just push aside and use the "Mystery get out of jail card for free" excuse and refuse to see the facts.

Originally posted by galveston75
I think the fact that most first borns are the ones to inherit their Fathers belongings at death is a given that all know. But as in Jesus case what would he inherit as there are no riches in heaven or physical item such as that.
So you know what the First Born title given to Jesus means even though it won't be admitted as that would surely mess up the ...[text shortened]... de and use the "Mystery get out of jail card for free" excuse and refuse to see the facts.

The Holy Bible says He is the heir to all things.
All authority in heaven and earth belongs to Him.
He is to inherit the throne of God, which is an ever lasting
throne. I'm sure you should be able to find this if
you do not remember reading it in the Holy Bible.
So I will not bother trying to look it up to prove a point
I know is true.

Originally posted by RJHinds
The Holy Bible says He is the heir to all things.
All authority in heaven and earth belongs to Him.
He is to inherit the throne of God, which is an ever lasting
throne. I'm sure you should be able to find this if
you do not remember reading it in the Holy Bible.
So I will not bother trying to look it up to prove a point
I know is true.

The Bible says he will sit at the right hand of God, his Father, not take his Fathers throne.

Hebrews 10:12 (King James Version)

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God.


Acts 7:55-56 (New American Standard Bible)

55 But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God;
56 and he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."


Hebrews 1:3-4 (New American Standard Bible)

3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.

Ok..I hope you take the time to look over these scriptures and think on them for awhile because lot's of info here about God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
First where is Jesus seen on each occasion? The right hand. Right? Not where God himself sits but the right hand. Right? A position of submission and not eqality.
Where is the Holy Spirit sitting? No where and not even mentioned as being on or aruond the throne ever.
But the Holy Spirit is mentioned as being filled into the viewer but the Father and Jesus are never said anywhere in the Bible to do that. It's because they are spirit beings and the Holy Spirit is God's active force that moves ones to action or whatever God is wanting that person to do or see or feel.
This also mentions Jesus station before God as becoming much more important then the angels. Jesus was created by God, his "Only Begotten Son" but after his life and death on earth he earned additional praise and position from his Father and gained a seat beside him.

PLease explain how these scriptures alone can support the trinity idea?

Originally posted by galveston75
The Bible says he will sit at the right hand of God, his Father, not take his Fathers throne.

Hebrews 10:12 (King James Version)

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God.


Acts 7:55-56 (New American Standard Bible)

55 But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into h ...[text shortened]... beside him.

PLease explain how these scriptures alone can support the trinity idea?

Why do you stop at Verse 12? Read on at least through the next verse,
for there is no period after verse 12. The following is Hebrews 10:13
taken from the New American Standard Bible.

13 waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A
FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET.

The right hand is a temporary position you see.

Why have you skipped over to chapter 10 of Hebews instead of reading
from chapter 1? If you had you would have gotten a better understanding
of what is being said. In that chapter it says God the Son is the heir.
God the Father calls the Son, "God" and commands the angels to worship
Him. The following is from Hebrews 1:8-13 NASB:

But of the Son He says, "THY THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. THOU HAST LOVED
RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, THY GOD,
HATH ANOINTED THEE WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE THY COMPANIONS."
And, "THOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING DIDST LAY THE FOUNDATION OF THE
EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF THY HANDS; THEY WILL
PERISH, BUT THOU REMAINEST; AND THEY WILL ALL BECOME OLD AS A
GARMENT, AND AS A MANTLE THOU WILT ROLL THEM UP; AS A GARMENT
THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED. BUT THOU ART THE SAME, AND THY YEARS
WILL NOT COME TO AN END." But to which of the angels has He ever said,
"SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE THINE ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR
THY FEET"?

You see, the son will be given the throne that is forever and ever.

You asked where the Holy Spirit is sitting. Don't you remember Jesus
telling his disciples, while He was on earth, that He would ask His Father
to send another Helper. That Helper is the Holy Spirit. So does it not
make sense that the Holy Spirit is going throughout the earth helping
and teaching those that believe in Him. Why would He be sitting down
somewhere if He has work to do on the earth?

Originally posted by RJHinds
Why do you stop at Verse 12? Read on at least through the next verse,
for there is no period after verse 12. The following is Hebrews 10:13
taken from the New American Standard Bible.

13 waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A
FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET.

The right hand is a temporary position you see.

Why have you skipped over to ...[text shortened]... eve in Him. Why would He be sitting down
somewhere if He has work to do on the earth?

Oh my friend..your missing so many points here and even confirming what I just showed you, but I just don't believe your missing the obvious so much.
I'm going to bed as it's late and catch back up with you tomorrow. C ya.