Is there any significant difference in meaning

Originally posted by moonbus
"I dont think there is any significant special treatment between Jews and Gentiles since Christ died. The death of Christ brought an end to all differentiation between all people. All people are one under God and all are treated and judged with the same yardstick of righteousness."

Yes and no. Gentiles were not expected to keep the thousands of rules and ...[text shortened]... to die a pagan (never having heard the word) than to die a reverted pagan. That's how I read it.

You said:

Yes and no. Gentiles were not expected to keep the thousands of rules and regulations which pertained to Jewish life (not to eat certain kinds of flesh, not to wear clothes woven of two kinds of material, etc etc). In this sense, a different yardstick was applied, and a more stringent one (in terms of daily practice), to the Jews.

I am referring to AFTER the death and resurrection of Christ. Jews if they have listened to the teachings of the Apostles would have known that Christ brought in a New Covenant which did away with the Law of Moses. Jews and Gentiles were from that point like one nation under God. Those thousands of laws did not apply after Christ.

In any case your conclusion is like the one I have made as well :

.. in a Christian context, some point of no return might apply to an individual too.

And this is the correct conclusion in my opinion. This is what many Christians here on this site are not able to accept.

They claim that all their sins are 'covered' no matter what they are and they would not be judged for those sins as Christ died for ALL their sins past present and future. I disagree with their conclusion as the Bible says otherwise.

Originally posted by Rajk999


2. It is ok for those who belong to Christ to sin.

To me both statements sound like a 'get-away-from-sin free card'.

A true follower of Christ isn't going to sin on purpose knowing they'd get away with it. But sin always leads to death. For example what if the Christian is still in the habit of doing prescription drugs they could end up dead from that sin. And if they turn from that prescription drug addiction and do the plans and purposes of God they would live longer.

Originally posted by RBHILL
A true follower of Christ isn't going to sin on purpose knowing they'd get away with it. But sin always leads to death. For example what if the Christian is still in the habit of doing prescription drugs they could end up dead from that sin. And if they turn from that prescription drug addiction and do the plans and purposes of God they would live longer.

'Knowing that they would get away with it"?

More like "Foolishly thinking that they would get away with it'

Rj999: "I am referring to AFTER the death and resurrection of Christ. Jews if they have listened to the teachings of the Apostles would have known that Christ brought in a New Covenant which did away with the Law of Moses."

Ah, well, on this point we significantly disagree. When Jesus said "I am come not to break the Law but to fulfill it" the Law he meant was the Torah. Nothing in the Gospels suggests that Jesus thought of himself as founding a new religion separate from Judaism or of obsoleting the Law of Moses. For example, when he sent an unclean man out of the synagogue, he was certainly following Jewish law there (it was "pollution" to enter the synagogue in an unclean state); Jesus commanded the man to go and render to the priest the offerings required by the Law of Moses (Mark 1:39 - 44).

Rj999: "In any case your conclusion is like the one I have made as well :
'.. in a Christian context, some point of no return might apply to an individual too.' And this is the correct conclusion in my opinion. This is what many Christians here on this site are not able to accept. "

I can make a plausible case for this as a possible conclusion, but I don't claim to speak 'ex cathedra'.

Rj999: "They claim that all their sins are 'covered' no matter what they are and they would not be judged for those sins as Christ died for ALL their sins past present and future."

I still don't know what it means for sins to be "covered". I don't think the forgiveness of sin which Christ wrought is about singular acts of sin; I think it's about man's sinful nature--i.e., his capacity for sin, which is the fruit of having eaten of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Man's overall sinful nature has been forgiven---, but each individual man will still have to answer for his own singular acts of sin. That's how I understand it anyway.

If some Christians think that having been forgiven means that they may do anything they please, however vile, and need not submit to judgment, then I think they are way off the mainstream doctrine on that issue.

Originally posted by moonbus
Rj999: "I am referring to AFTER the death and resurrection of Christ. Jews if they have listened to the teachings of the Apostles would have known that Christ brought in a New Covenant which did away with the Law of Moses."

Ah, well, on this point we significantly disagree. When Jesus said "I am come not to break the Law but to fulfill it" the Law he mean ...[text shortened]... eed not submit to judgment, then I think they are way off the mainstream doctrine on that issue.

Thanks for your comments. I guess if you stick around we will get a chance discuss the surrounding issues at some point in the future. This is the core issue which you summarised very eloquently .."If some Christians think that having been forgiven means that they may do anything they please, however vile, and need not submit to judgment, then I think they are way off the mainstream doctrine on that issue."

Christians [some sects] believing that their sin is forgiven in advance. They have an automatic free pass to the Kingdom of God despite their conduct from now till then. In fact they are so brazen that they say not even God can take away their eternal life.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Between saying

1. "all sin has been covered by Christ", "sinners" do not get punished for their "sins" as long as they "belong to Him".

and

2. It is ok for those who belong to Christ to sin.

To me both statements sound like a 'get-away-from-sin free card'.

It would be nice if any responses are brief and to the point rather than the normal rambling and confused cut and pastes that are now common.

Both 1 and 2 are false, because both statements deviate from the text in content and meaning.

What I suggest you do is find a verse of scripture of which the meaning is in question, and then we can debate about that. Otherwise all we're doing is arguing about what YOU said, which makes no Biblical sense anyway!

Originally posted by josephw
Both 1 and 2 are false, because both statements deviate from the text in content and meaning.

What I suggest you do is find a verse of scripture of which the meaning is in question, and then we can debate about that. Otherwise all we're doing is arguing about what YOU said, which makes no Biblical sense anyway!

The first one is part of a conversation between KellyJ and FMF. KJ agreed the statement was correct. The second one is my words.

If I remember correctly you are one of those who think that sin would not be counted against the Christian.

Maybe you can tell us what the following passages mean to you. To most readers these passages are saying that for some Christians whose sins are so grevious and vile and foul etc etc,[especially if they dont repent], that God would withdraw all chance of eternal life. Therefore it is incorrect to believe that it is a forgone conclusion that eternal life cannot be withdrawn as some think.

1. ... if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. (Hebrews 10:38 KJV)

2. For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. (2 Pet 2:20-21)

3. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Matthew 7:21-23 KJV)

4. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, (Hebrews 10:26 KJV)

5. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (Hebrews 6:4-6 KJV)

Originally posted by Rajk999
The first one is part of a conversation between KellyJ and FMF. KJ agreed the statement was correct. The second one is my words.

If I remember correctly you are one of those who think that sin would not be counted against the Christian.

Maybe you can tell us what the following passages mean to you. To most readers these passages are saying that for som ...[text shortened]... to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (Hebrews 6:4-6 KJV) [/quote]

I'm glad you brought up this issue.

Let's take it slow, and be sure we're talking about the same thing from sentence to sentence.

There are many things Christians disagree on. One of them is assurance, i.e. that the gift of eternal life cannot be lost or taken away. I don't believe that disagreeing about eternal security means that one isn't a Christain because one doesn't agree with me.

I don't believe one can lose eternal life, not because I disagree with what the verses say that you provided, but because you have misapplied them.

1 Corinthians 3:11-16
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? (italics mine)

Does there not appear to be a contradiction between the verses you referenced and those I provided?

We have an appearent problem!

Originally posted by josephw
I'm glad you brought up this issue.

Let's take it slow, and be sure we're talking about the same thing from sentence to sentence.

There are many things Christians disagree on. One of them is assurance, i.e. that the gift of eternal life cannot be lost or taken away. I don't believe that disagreeing about eternal security means that one isn't a Christa ...[text shortened]... diction between the verses you referenced and those I provided?

We have an appearent problem!

If there is a problem then how can you say .. I don't believe one can lose eternal life .."

Have you taken one side and ignored the other?

The only way to resolve it is the say it like this:

- there are some who are chosen by God and they will not lose their eternal life.
- there are some whose fate is not determined an they will be judged in the last day.

Clearly the Bible is saying that there converted Christians who will lose their etenal life.

RJ99:"
1. - there are some who are chosen by God and they will not lose their eternal life.
2. - there are some whose fate is not determined an they will be judged in the last day."

1. was the position taken by John Calvin; he maintained that God knows in advance everything everyone will ever do, say, and believe, therefore God must know in advance who will be forgiven and make it into heaven and who won't. Nothing you or anyone can do will change that. Such is omniscience.

The Calvinists believed that there would be a very small number of 'elect' souls on judgment day (the Calvinists, of course) and the rest were damned.

Some people evidently found this degree of deterministic certainty comforting. Can't say as I would though: doesn't leave any room for contrition or self-improvement (though a thorough-going Calvinist would say that God knows whether you will improve or humble yourself, and whether it will be sufficiently earnest for Him to extend His grace to you).

Originally posted by moonbus
RJ99:"
1. - there are some who are chosen by God and they will not lose their eternal life.
2. - there are some whose fate is not determined an they will be judged in the last day."

1. was the position taken by John Calvin; he maintained that God knows in advance everything everyone will ever do, say, and believe, therefore God must know in advance who ...[text shortened]... umble yourself, and whether it will be sufficiently earnest for Him to extend His grace to you).

I hope you understand that I made that #1 statement becuase it is clearly stated in the Bible several times and several different ways. There are some chosen people who cannot under any circumstances lose their eternal life.

It also in the Bible that some converted Christians would lose their eternal life because of sin. Trying to doubt that they can lose their eternal life is foolish and futile. The point is that this once saved always saved doctrine is a fallacy. This is the doctrine that keeps the churches full and the bank accounts of pastors fat. Nobody these days wants the truth.. it is too hard to do in this selfish materialistic world - love God, love your neighbour as yourself, do good good works, refrain from sin, is the way to eternal life. Christ said that very clearly so it is the truth.

They rather hear the sweet sound of lies and deceit of the preacher:
- just accept Christ with your mouth and you will be saved
- Christ died for all your sins therefore your sins are paid for
- you would escape judgement
- you dont have to do good works or give charity, in fact helping the poor is trying to 'earn your way to heaven'

The words of Christ and the teachings of modern Christianity are in direct opposition to one another.

RJ999:"The words of Christ and the teachings of modern Christianity are in direct opposition to one another."

Yeah, well, Christianity ain't what it used ta be.