How did you get to where you are

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
And he does say that anyone who is even remotely skeptical about evolution is stupid or insane.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
That's pretty much true though.

I doubt if he actually said that though.
I would rather put it as either ignorant or deluded or insane. Same goes for skepticism about the world being a sphere.

Originally posted by bbarr
Of course my experiences have shaped my views on religion, but my views have been confirmed to my satisfaction by my philosophical education. Whether it is bias, in an epistemically objectionable sense, depends on whether there is evidence that I am unable to see by virtue of my experiences and education. I have never encountered an argument for theism that ...[text shortened]... He does not know what role his parents' vicious theology played in bringing about his atheism.

"I have never encountered an argument for theism that struck me as even minimally plausible (and the best religious philosophers agree with me here, so I doubt this is just higher-order bias)."

I don't think there is a plausible argument . A deist believes that the knowledge of the existence of God can be understood by reason and nature. I don't know how they do it. My wife and I were talking about this last night and she read a verse in proverbs that says something that I thought was interesting. It suggests, at least to me, that knowledge of God is arrived at by other than evidence or reason.

"All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.
They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge."

I can understand why the atheist might think that believing in God is delusional since knowing that there is a God is know by some other mechanism which cannot be adequately explained.

Originally posted by josephw
I can understand why the atheist might think that believing in God is delusional since knowing that there is a God is know by some other mechanism which cannot be adequately explained.

But the real question is, without evidence, how can one tell the difference between a delusion and reality?

I got where I am by being convinced by the Holy Spirit that I was a sinner.

This was a long process. I was always pointing to the wrongs of everyone else. It was the fault of my religious dad. It was my teachers that were wrong. It was my brother who was bad. I was always to clear about the faults of everyone else - the policeman, the bully in the neighberhood, the corrupt politician, the greedy preacher.

After many years the Holy Spirit was about to draw a circle around me. And no one was in that circle except me. And in the light of God's word I saw that I was a sinner and that I needed Jesus to be my Savior. The "other guy" was no longer the issue. The issue before God was me ... was myself ... was I.

And I realized also that Christ wanted me. I thought God wanted something in my pocket. I thought God wanted something I had. I thought God wanted something I could do. I thought He wanted something I could perform. I thought God wanted my self effort, my work, my labors, my "turning over a new leaf".

By His great mercy I came to the realization that Jesus loved me and wanted me. He wanted my heart and my whole being.

I was therefore convicted of my need for forgiveness. And I was convicted that Christ loved me in spite of my real guilt and my real sins.

I came to the bible with a big filter on based on modern thought. Gradually Jesus won my trust completely. I figured what He believed must be Okay. So it was reading about Jesus and reading His words that eventually opened me up to the rest of the Bible.

Originally posted by jaywill
I figured what He believed must be Okay.

Your Jewish? I never realized.

Originally posted by jaywill
I got where I am by being convinced by the Holy Spirit that I was a sinner.

This was a long process. I was always pointing to the wrongs of everyone else. It was the fault of my religious dad. It was my teachers that were wrong. It was my brother who was bad. I was always to clear about the faults of everyone else - the policeman, the bully in the neigh ...[text shortened]... ng about Jesus and reading His words that eventually opened me up to the rest of the Bible.

This tells us nothing about what actually happenned, only that you are a rabid fundy.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
This tells us nothing about what actually happenned, only that you are a rabid fundy.

he is not that bad, as long as he doesn't indoctrinate his children much and he doesn't go door to door asking people if they have found jesus. as long as he doesn't kick puppies, and is nice to people... we will assume he wasn't gonna cure cancer anyway.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
he is not that bad, as long as he doesn't indoctrinate his children much and he doesn't go door to door asking people if they have found jesus. as long as he doesn't kick puppies, and is nice to people... we will assume he wasn't gonna cure cancer anyway.

I agree with everything except going from door to door to tell people about the wonderful love of Jesus.

Do pray for me in the name of Jesus that I would be so bold.

I have done so before. Its hard. But there is hardly a greater joy than telling people about the love of Jesus.

As for the children's training? Kids will make up their own minds. I raised two of them. What you are by example will speak louder than ANY kind of "indoctrinization."

One thing I am thankful for, I will not have to be in hell knowing that my kids are there too because I turned them away from Christ.

Friend you better think good and hard. You don't want anything to do with Jesus Christ yourself ? Fine. Don't hold your kids back too.

Buy them a New Testament at the very least. Suppose you turn out to be all wrong about Jesus ?

Get your kids a New Testament. Tell them to read it through at least once before they leave this earth. Give them a fair chance.

Then if you turn out to be wrong at least you won't have thier damnation on your conscience too, maybe.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
This tells us nothing about what actually happenned, only that you are a rabid fundy.

Jesus loves rabid fundies too.

Originally posted by jaywill
Jesus loves rabid fundies too.

If I turn out to be wrong and that Jesus was not Son of God and did not die and rise again, and I turn out not to have the Holy Spirit or eternal life... what regrets will I have ?


None whatsoever. Believing as I have been taught to believe by the Bible is the best possible human existence I could have had. I would do it all over again without a second thought.

If I turn out to just melt away into dust and be no more, and that Jesus was a deception, and if I had to live life all over again - Give me that "deception".

I honestly cannot imagine a better human life in not believing in Christ and in all that He teaches.

You athiests out there, whatever it is you think you have apart from the love and presence of Jesus Christ, you can have it. I'll take Jesus Christ or whatever it is that makes me think its Jesus Christ.

If I had 100 lives to live on this earth, I would not waste ONE of them chasing after a CHRISTLESS existence.

Originally posted by jaywill
If I turn out to be wrong and that Jesus was not Son of God and did not die and rise again, and I turn out not to have the Holy Spirit or eternal life... what regrets will I have ?


[b] None whatsoever. Believing as I have been taught to believe by the Bible is the best possible human existence I could have had. I would do it all over again without a ...[text shortened]... es to live on this earth, I would not waste ONE of them chasing after a CHRISTLESS existence.[/b]

Yeah, Don Quixote seemd pretty happy tilting at windmills too...

"Just then they came in sight of thirty or forty windmills that rise from that plain. And no sooner did Don Quixote see them that he said to his squire, "Fortune is guiding our affairs better than we ourselves could have wished. Do you see over yonder, friend Sancho, thirty or forty hulking giants? I intend to do battle with them and slay them. With their spoils we shall begin to be rich for this is a righteous war and the removal of so foul a brood from off the face of the earth is a service God will bless."

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"I have never encountered an argument for theism that struck me as even minimally plausible (and the best religious philosophers agree with me here, so I doubt this is just higher-order bias)."

I don't think there is a plausible argument . A deist believes that the knowledge of the existence of God can be understood by reason and nature. I don't kn that there is a God is know by some other mechanism which cannot be adequately explained.[/b]

So if I understand you correctly, you claim there is some mechanism that produces justified theistic belief in the believer completely independently of any considerations that bear on the de facto question of god's existence? (Actually, you claim more stringently that it produces knowledge, but I would rather focus on justification.)

How would that possibly work, joseph? Your inability to adequately explain such a mechanism is just what I would expect in the case that you are full of it and there really is no such mechanism.

Originally posted by TheSkipper
Yeah, Don Quixote seemd pretty happy tilting at windmills too...

"Just then they came in sight of thirty or forty windmills that rise from that plain. And no sooner did Don Quixote see them that he said to his squire, "Fortune is guiding our affairs better than we ourselves could have wished. Do you see over yonder, friend Sancho, thirty or forty hulki ...[text shortened]... d the removal of so foul a brood from off the face of the earth is a service God will bless."

I don't think that will be the case.

The prophets accurately foretold many aspects of the life of the Son of God that came to pass.

And they also foretold of the total and universal vindication of Jesus. So my bets are on them being accurate as to these prophesies also.

As followers of Jesus Christ we're very confident that we're on the right and victorious side of history - (HIS - story).


You are on the Titanic and don't know it.

Originally posted by jaywill
I agree with everything except going from door to door to tell people about the wonderful love of Jesus.

Do pray for me in the name of Jesus that I would be so bold.

I have done so before. Its hard. But there is hardly a greater joy than telling people about the love of Jesus.

As for the children's training? Kids will make up their own minds. I ...[text shortened]... urn out to be wrong at least you won't have thier damnation on your conscience too, maybe.

with this post i totally agree.

Originally posted by jaywill
Get your kids a New Testament. Tell them to read it through at least once before they leave this earth. Give them a fair chance.

Then if you turn out to be wrong at least you won't have thier damnation on your conscience too, maybe.

So God would condemn children to hell because their parents didn't give them a fair chance?