God view

Originally posted by telerion
Why didn't God create only those that he knew would use their free will to accept him in the first place? Why would a loving God create people that he knew would not accept him?

What makes you think that the human being will ever understand the ways of God. If he did, it would mean we are on the same level. And this is clearly not the case.

Originally posted by dj2becker
What makes you think that the human being will ever understand the ways of God. If he did, it would mean we are on the same level. And this is clearly not the case.

Oh good. You don't understand God. Then I expect you will stop speaking on and on at this forum as if you did.

Originally posted by dj2becker
I have a Christian life view. Thus I have a Christian view of God. Thus I believe that God is the eternal creator of the universe. I believe that God created man in His own image.

The skeptics have asked me the following question. “If God created the universe, then who created God?” This question is clearly idiotic. As I see it, God is eternal by defin ...[text shortened]... reveals a special aspect of Himself: His love.

Anyone have other views regarding this issue?

At first, I wasn't going to bother reading all that. But then, I did, and I'm actually glad I did... so there are actually Christians in here who manage to post without that frantic "if-you-don't-believe-you'll-die" attitude. Now my first observation is just interesting... not contradicting, it just sprang to my mind when I read it:
“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end.”
Isn't that nearly exactly what Buddha says when he emerges? (No, I'm not a Buddhist either... I'm just an Atheist who tries to have some general knowledge on a lot of things) Just another parallel between two of the world religions.

Now, I'd like to ask you a question. Not my usual "So if God created me, wouldn't it be his fault if I don't believe in him?". I've asked that several times, and while I'm not satisfied with the answer, I'll let it rest at that.
You deserve a special question, as this is the first religious post on this site that I've come across which is actually coherent and can be read without me crying out because of bad spelling. So here it comes:

If I kicked a cute little puppy, just to see if it came back to me, people would call me cruel and whatnot. So why is it ok if God does that to humans? In my opinion, it's exactly the same thing- a superior... *being* treating an inferior being badly just to test it's faith. It's just not right, in my opinion.

I think Christianity (like most other Religions) is not bad in itself, it was made bad by society commiting bad deeds in it's name ( the crusades for example). And I think most of what is understood as "Christian" today is not what was originally intended.

I tend to think in a very rational way, which means I don't believe in things I can't explain. The thing that makes me not trust Christianity is that the first written recordings were written about 150 years after Jesus' death. Who will guarantee things didn't get muddled up?

I'm sorry, I just can't believe in all this. Like I read somewhere: "An atheist is someone without any inside means of support". It can be hard sometimes, not seeing a reason for all the hardships you encounter. But for me personally, that is still better than living your life after some rules, only to discover when you die that it was the wrong rules you lived by.

If God is truly kind, he will save me- I don't have proof or any sign, so I don't believe because I don't know.

"Lord forgive them, for they know not what they do."

Originally posted by telerion
The free will defense meets these arguments by claiming that free will was necessary for a perfect world (Without it we would be robots. This is a bad thing yada yada yada). Free will then led to sin (or evil), which caused pain and suffering and death.

In the past, I have attacked this by asking why God wouldn't create us in such a way that while we ...[text shortened]... , "If a benevolent God exists, why is there evil or why is there needless pain and suffering?"

That we do not need free will in heaven does not mean we never needed free will prior to heaven.

Originally posted by dj2becker
I said free-will is an earthly concept but that I couldn't see why you would not have free-will in Heaven, due to the fact that those in Heaven would be the ones that wanted to be there and would anyway have loved God by their own free-will on earth and would thus do the same in Heaven.

The point is this. For someone to be free, they have to have the choice to sin, or kill or love or hate whomever or whatever they choose, otherwise 'their will is not free'. What i am asking is this...

How can God maintain Heaven as a sin free place unless he controls peoples behaviour?

If you went to heaven and nicked someones purse while you were there, Heaven would no longer be a sin free place. If heaven is to remain sin free for eternity, God would have to alter peoples behaviour completely.

Think of the Spanish Inquisition. All those men doing God's work killed thousands of peasants and kings alike, how would God be able to accept these people into a sin free place when they have had a life time of sin? Even Good, God praising people like yourself would have to be changed im sure. How often do we sin through ignorance, or fear or surprise?? How would God prevent this without removing our capability to choose actions that lead to sin?? In other words, to remove our free will.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
That we do not need free will in heaven does not mean we never needed free will prior to heaven.

Perhaps. Of course "need" itself is also very troubling. Why should the creator of all "need" to do anything? He would control the very field upon which what is possible is defined. Is there some greater space of existence upon which God exists and which contains fixed rules about what is possible and what is not?

Originally posted by telerion
Oh good. You don't understand God. Then I expect you will stop speaking on and on at this forum as if you did.

I don't understand all the ways of God. Nobody does. If anybody did, they would be on the same level as God. Don't try to fool yourself in thinking that you understand God. God's ways are totally different to our ways. With the little bit of human understanding that I have I only just start to see or to think I see a very small glimpse of what God is really like.

Originally posted by angie88
At first, I wasn't going to bother reading all that. But then, I did, and I'm actually glad I did... so there are actually Christians in here who manage to post without that frantic "if-you-don't-believe-you'll-die" attitude. Now my first observation is just interesting... not contradicting, it just sprang to my mind when I read it:
“I am the Alpha an ...[text shortened]... don't believe because I don't know.

"Lord forgive them, for they know not what they do."

If I kicked a cute little puppy, just to see if it came back to me, people would call me cruel and whatnot. So why is it ok if God does that to humans? In my opinion, it's exactly the same thing- a superior... *being* treating an inferior being badly just to test it's faith. It's just not right, in my opinion.

This is indeed an interesting question. This is how I see it:

Since "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23), there is no one who has the right to freedom from God's wrath on the basis of his own innocence.

As far as babies are concerned, and others who may be incompetent mentally to distinguish right and wrong, it is clear from both Scripture and universal experience that they are sinners by nature and thus will inevitably become sinners by choice as soon as they are able to do so.

The world is now under God's Curse (Genesis 3:17) because of man's rebellion against God's Word.

This "bondage of corruption," with the "whole world groaning and travailing together in pain" (Romans 8:21, 22), is universal, affecting all men and women and children everywhere. God did not create the world this way, and one day will set all things right again. In that day, "God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain" (Revelation 21:4).

The Lord Jesus Christ, who was the only truly "innocent" and "righteous" man in all history, nevertheless has suffered more than anyone else who ever lived.

And this He did for us! "Christ died for our sins" (I Corinthians 15:3). He suffered and died, in order that ultimately He might deliver the world from the Curse, and that, even now, He can deliver from sin and its bondage anyone who will receive Him in faith as personal Lord and Savior. This great deliverance from the penalty of inherent sin, as well as of overt sins, very possibly also assures the salvation of those who have died before reaching an age of conscious choice of wrong over right.

With our full faith in God's goodness and in Christ's redemption, we can recognize that our present sufferings can be turned to His glory and our good.

The sufferings of unsaved men are often used by the Holy Spirit to cause them to realize their needs of salvation and to turn to Christ in repentance and faith. The sufferings of Christians should always be the means of developing a stronger dependence on God and a more Christ-like character, if they are properly "exercised thereby" (Hebrews 12:11).

Thus, God is loving and merciful even when, "for the present," He allows trials and sufferings to come in our lives.

"For we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are called according to His purpose" (Romans 8:28).

For more info:http://christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t023.html

Originally posted by angie88

I tend to think in a very rational way, which means I don't believe in things I can't explain. The thing that makes me not trust Christianity is that the first written recordings were written about 150 years after Jesus' death. Who will guarantee things didn't get muddled up?

There have been hundreds of books written on the subject of the evidences of the divine inspiration of the Bible, and these evidences are many and varied. Most people today, unfortunately, have not read any of these books. In fact, few have even read the Bible itself! Thus, many people tend to go along with the popular delusion that the Bible is full of mistakes and is no longer relevant to our modern world.
Nevertheless the Bible writers claimed repeatedly that they were transmitting the very Word of God, infallible and authoritative in the highest degree. This is an amazing thing for any writer to say, and if the forty or so men who wrote the Scriptures were wrong in these claims, then they must have been lying, or insane, or both.

But, on the other hand, if the greatest and most influential book of the ages, containing the most beautiful literature and the most perfect moral code ever devised, was written by deceiving fanatics, then what hope is there for ever finding meaning and purpose in this world?

If one will seriously investigate these Biblical evidences, he will find that their claims of divine inspiration (stated over 3,000 times, in various ways) were amply justified.

Fulfilled Prophecies

The remarkable evidence of fulfilled prophecy is just one case in point. Hundreds of Bible prophecies have been fulfilled, specifically and meticulously, often long after the prophetic writer had passed away.

For example, Daniel the prophet predicted in about 538 BC (Daniel 9:24-27) that Christ would come as Israel's promised Savior and Prince 483 years after the Persian emperor would give the Jews authority to rebuild Jerusalem, which was then in ruins. This was clearly and definitely fulfilled, hundreds of years later.

There are extensive prophecies dealing with individual nations and cities and with the course of history in general, all of which have been literally fulfilled. More than 300 prophecies were fulfilled by Christ Himself at His first coming. Other prophecies deal with the spread of Christianity, as well as various false religions, and many other subjects.

There is no other book, ancient or modern, like this. The vague, and usually erroneous, prophecies of people like Jeanne Dixon, Nostradamus, Edgar Cayce, and others like them are not in the same category at all, and neither are other religious books such as the Koran, the Confucian Analects, and similar religious writings. Only the Bible manifests this remarkable prophetic evidence, and it does so on such a tremendous scale as to render completely absurd any explanation other than divine revelation.

Unique Historical Accuracy

The historical accuracy of the Scriptures is likewise in a class by itself, far superior to the written records of Egypt, Assyria, and other early nations. Archeological confirmations of the Biblical record have been almost innumerable in the last century. Dr. Nelson Glueck, probably the greatest modern authority on Israeli archeology, has said:

"No archeological discovery has ever controverted a Biblical reference. Scores of archeological findings have been made which confirm in clear outline or in exact detail historical statements in the Bible. And, by the same token, proper evaluation of Biblical descriptions has often led to amazing discoveries."

Scientific Accuracy

Another striking evidence of divine inspiration is found in the fact that many of the principles of modern science were recorded as facts of nature in the Bible long before scientist confirmed them experimentally. A sampling of these would include:

Roundness of the earth (Isaiah 40:22)
Almost infinite extent of the sidereal universe (Isaiah 55:9)
Law of conservation of mass and energy (II Peter 3:7)
Hydrologic cycle (Ecclesiastes 1:7)
Vast number of stars (Jeremiah 33:22)
Law of increasing entropy (Psalm 102:25-27)
Paramount importance of blood in life processes (Leviticus 17:11)
Atmospheric circulation (Ecclesiastes 1:6)
Gravitational field (Job 26:7)
and many others.

These are not stated in the technical jargon of modern science, of course, but in terms of the basic world of man's everyday experience; nevertheless, they are completely in accord with the most modern scientific facts.

It is significant also that no real mistake has ever been demonstrated in the Bible -- in science, in history, or in any other subject. Many have been claimed, of course, but conservative Bible scholars have always been able to work out reasonable solutions to all such problems.

Unique Structure

The remarkable structure of the Bible should also be stressed. Although it is a collection of 66 books, written by 40 or more different men over a period of 2,000 years, it is clearly one Book, with perfect unity and consistency throughout.

The individual writers, at the time of writing, had no idea that their message was eventually to be incorporated into such a Book, but each nevertheless fits perfectly into place and serves its own unique purpose as a component of the whole. Anyone who diligently studies the Bible will continually find remarkable structural and mathematical patterns woven throughout its fabric, with an intricacy and symmetry incapable of explanation by chance or collusion.

The one consistent theme of the Bible, developing in grandeur from Genesis to Revelation, is God's great work in the creation and redemption of all things, through His only Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Bible's Unique Effect

The Bible is unique also in terms of its effect on individual men and on the history of nations. It is the all-time best seller, appealing both to hearts and minds, beloved by at least some in every race or nation or tribe to which it has gone, rich or poor, scholar or simple, king or commoner, men of literally every background and walk of life. No other book has ever held such universal appeal nor produced such lasting effects.

One final evidence that the Bible is true is found in the testimony of those who have believed it. Multitudes of people, past and present, have found from personal experience that its promises are true, its counsel is sound, its commands and restrictions are wise, and its wonderful message of salvation meets every need for both time and eternity.

http://christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t003.html

With the little bit of human understanding that I have I only just start to see or to think I see a very small glimpse of what God is really like.

With a little bit greater human understanding, I have seen a little bit larger glimpse of what God is really like. 😉

Originally posted by telerion
[b]With the little bit of human understanding that I have I only just start to see or to think I see a very small glimpse of what God is really like.

With a little bit greater human understanding, I have seen a little bit larger glimpse of what God is really like. 😉

[/b]

Are we talking about the same God?😉

Originally posted by dj2becker
Are we talking about the same God?😉

Probably, although you usually augment and diminish him as you find it necessary.