For God so loved the world

buckky

Spirituality

04 Aug '11 11:14

Nicksten
Jo'Burg South Africa
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05 Aug '11 06:28
Originally posted by Dasa
This is just more evidence that the Bible has been fabricated from the minds of men.

We find in the Bible an infinite eternal God who can only have one son.

A infinite eternal God who suffers.

An infinite eternal God that forgives some and condemns others......although Gods love is but unconditional.

An infinite eternal God that can only save mankin ...[text shortened]... eternal God of the Bible has been created in the small minds of superstitious unenlightened men.
Oh and you probably want to say the Vedas is true religion??? Cause it was designed and formed first before all other religion? You know nothing about your own religion and yet you have a lot to say about Christianity - which you know even less about.
Nicksten
Jo'Burg South Africa
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05 Aug '11 06:30
Originally posted by Soothfast
Children more often get me to thinking about Satan.
some nice humor 😀
They sometimes do - but what about the other times?
jaywill
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12622
05 Aug '11 10:571 edit
Originally posted by avalanchethecat
I'm sorry man, I strive to be a good person in all I do, but scripture's a desert to me.
=========================================
I'm sorry man, I strive to be a good person in all I do, but scripture's a desert to me.
========================================

It is good that you strive to be a good person. But in terms of justification before God if you depend upon establishing your own righteousness you are denying the sufficiency of te work of Christ on His cross. Never think that you can add something to the work that Jesus Christ has finished.

If you owe ten thousand dollars that you do not have there is no way to repay the dept. You may still try to save six cents and hope you are at least getting a little closer to repaying. This is what your striving to be a good person is like if you trust in that to justify you before God. Are you still calculating that you can generate a little with the few pennies you can pick up on the way ?

If what you owed was not so heavy then Christ would not have had to come to die for you taking God's judgment into Himself. You owe ten thousand but you trust that the quarter and the two nickels you've collected will help. They won't.

All those who seek to establish their own righteousness are not subject to God's righteousness.

On the other hand there is no need for you to beg God tp be merciful. There is no need to cry bitterly as if God's heart is hard and you hope to soften it. You do not need to beg or grovel and ask Christ to come to die for you. The finished work is already done. You simply believe and receive the finished work. You do not need to implore God or beg Him hoping to soften His heart.

We simply receive with thanksgiving the justification by the redemption of Christ. He is faithful. He is not a liar. The Son of God has come, and the problem of sin has been solved. In Christ God will look upon you as if you have never sinned at all. You were judged, on Christ's cross.
Proper Knob
Cornovii
North of the Tamar
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05 Aug '11 11:39
Originally posted by jaywill
[b]=========================================
I'm sorry man, I strive to be a good person in all I do, but scripture's a desert to me.
========================================

It is good that you strive to be a good person. But in terms of justification before God if you depend upon establishing your own righteousness you are denying the s ...[text shortened]... ll look upon you as if you have never sinned at all. You were judged, on Christ's cross.[/b]
All those who seek to establish their own righteousness are not subject to God's righteousness.

Good!! Gods righteousness is delivered by a threat of force, which can be summed up succinctly as, 'Believe or Die'!!.
avalanchethecat
Not actually a cat
The Flat Earth
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05 Aug '11 12:01
Originally posted by jaywill
[b]=========================================
I'm sorry man, I strive to be a good person in all I do, but scripture's a desert to me.
========================================

It is good that you strive to be a good person. But in terms of justification before God if you depend upon establishing your own righteousness you are denying the s ...[text shortened]... ll look upon you as if you have never sinned at all. You were judged, on Christ's cross.[/b]
Well yes, so you say, but all of that 'wisdom' comes from your preferred scripture, the value of which you and I fundamentally disagree upon.
jaywill
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05 Aug '11 12:131 edit
Originally posted by Proper Knob
[b]All those who seek to establish their own righteousness are not subject to God's righteousness.

Good!! Gods righteousness is delivered by a threat of force, which can be summed up succinctly as, 'Believe or Die'!!.[/b]
================================
Good!! Gods righteousness is delivered by a threat of force, which can be summed up succinctly as, 'Believe or Die'!!.
======================================

God is the Source of life. It is more of a warning that to rebel against the Source of life is to die.

"In the day you eat of it you will die." If man takes into himself this other being, this Satan, this original thrust for supposed independence from his Creator, he will withdraw from goodness, life, blessing, righteousness and the government of the Creator.

You say, "There should be no penalty! It is vindictive of God to warn man that there are consequences to sin and revolt against the government of God." Such a view is warped.

Why do you fault God that He inforces LAWS in His creation ? If you jump out of the window of a five story building do you hold the physics teacher of having a personal threat against you, that the law of gravity will smash you upon the pavement ?

God will uphold the laws of creation. Seeing this as vindictive personal threats is warped.
jaywill
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05 Aug '11 12:251 edit
Originally posted by avalanchethecat
Well yes, so you say, but all of that 'wisdom' comes from your preferred scripture, the value of which you and I fundamentally disagree upon.
=====================================
Well yes, so you say, but all of that 'wisdom' comes from your preferred scripture, the value of which you and I fundamentally disagree upon.
=======================================

I think instead of being annoyed that I am possibly voicing only my opinion, you should at least spend equal time to consider the plan.

You believe into Christ, you receive Him. And you are before God as if you had never sinned. Your history instantly becomes Jesus Christ.

Your legacy become Jesus Christ. Outside of Christ you have a history. You would not like all the elements of that history to be broadcast before the world, say, on this tube we are viewing. Neither would I my own past sins.

But when you believe into Christ, your entire past history is completely cleansed forever. God looks upon you as as righteous as Himself. Your past, your legacy is then the Son of God.

I could NEVER imagine something like this. And neither could Calvin, or Luther, or Paul or Peter or John. This is something that came out of the heart of God.

I think you should spend at least equal time to consider the offer.
avalanchethecat
Not actually a cat
The Flat Earth
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05 Aug '11 13:34
Originally posted by jaywill
[b]=====================================
Well yes, so you say, but all of that 'wisdom' comes from your preferred scripture, the value of which you and I fundamentally disagree upon.
=======================================

I think instead of being annoyed that I am possibly voicing only my opinion, you should at least spend equal time to c ...[text shortened]... of the heart of God.

I think you should spend at least equal time to consider the offer.[/b]
I'm really not in the slightest bit annoyed Jaywill, honestly. And I don't think you're voicing only your opinion, I'm sure many devout christians share the same views.

I have in the past spent a great deal of time considering the relevance of scripture and the religions springing from it. I saw then and I see now, absolutely no reason to believe that it is inspired by god rather than simply created by men, albeit perhaps well-intentioned and sincerely good and honest men. Given that it is not possible to determine one way or another whether it is divinely inspired, I am bound by the rationality given by god - if he exists - to reject any religion based upon it. As I said, scripture's a desert to me and I'm not about to make my home in a castle built on sand.
Proper Knob
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05 Aug '11 14:591 edit
Originally posted by jaywill
[b]================================
Good!! Gods righteousness is delivered by a threat of force, which can be summed up succinctly as, 'Believe or Die'!!.
======================================[/b]

God is the Source of life. It is more of a warning that to rebel against the Source of life is to die.

"In the day you eat of it you wil ...[text shortened]... di d will uphold the laws of creation. Seeing this as vindictive personal threats is warped.
If man takes into himself this other being, this Satan, this original thrust for supposed independence from his Creator, he will withdraw from goodness, life, blessing, righteousness and the government of the Creator.

Hang a minute. Are you seriously suggesting that unless someone accept/believes in the 'government of the Creator' ie. your Christian God, they will withdraw from goodness and life. I'm not quite even sure what that mean?! Could you elaborate?!

If you jump out of the window of a five story building do you hold the physics teacher of having a personal threat against you, that the law of gravity will smash you upon the pavement ?

That doesn't make sense. Could you rephrase that please?

God will uphold the laws of creation. Seeing this as vindictive personal threats is warped.

Believing in a God who will send people to Hell simply for not 'believing' in Him is what is 'warped'.

I'm off for the weekend, i won't be back till after Monday so i get round to your reply then my good sir.
RJHinds
The Near Genius
Fort Gordon
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05 Aug '11 17:18
Originally posted by Proper Knob
[b]If man takes into himself this other being, this Satan, this original thrust for supposed independence from his Creator, he will withdraw from goodness, life, blessing, righteousness and the government of the Creator.

Hang a minute. Are you seriously suggesting that unless someone accept/believes in the 'government of the Creator' ie. your Chri ...[text shortened]... kend, i won't be back till after Monday so i get round to your reply then my good sir.[/b]
You apparently haven't spent any time in a Physics class or else you
were daydreaming about something else.
jaywill
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07 Aug '11 12:071 edit
Originally posted by Proper Knob
[b]All those who seek to establish their own righteousness are not subject to God's righteousness.

Good!! Gods righteousness is delivered by a threat of force, which can be summed up succinctly as, 'Believe or Die'!!.[/b]
jaywill
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07 Aug '11 12:20
Originally posted by Proper Knob
[b]If man takes into himself this other being, this Satan, this original thrust for supposed independence from his Creator, he will withdraw from goodness, life, blessing, righteousness and the government of the Creator.

Hang a minute. Are you seriously suggesting that unless someone accept/believes in the 'government of the Creator' ie. your Chri ...[text shortened]... kend, i won't be back till after Monday so i get round to your reply then my good sir.[/b]
===================================
Believing in a God who will send people to Hell simply for not 'believing' in Him is what is 'warped'.
=================================

A place that people themselves want, that is without God, is by its own charateristics, a hell.

Hell is your escape. There you get yourself. That's all you wanted.
Unless God works in your being to conform you to the image of His Son, yourself, as it is in this fallen world, will be your hell.

The sinner has there a rendevous with his conscience. The conscience will finally catch up to him. And his own conscience will cry out for punishment at the realization of the seriousness of his sins.

Jesus Christ just saw deeply into the problem of your sins long before we did, and came to save us from those sins. Each sinner's estimation of sin will eventually see those sins as God sees them.

The reason you can be so flippant now, is because you do not see the seriousness of them. Neither do you see the love of God to send you salvation from sin.

Apparently, life goes on. There is no angry burst from heaven upon what you said, what you did. Apparently, all is well.

It is this apparant calm throughout your life of sinning which has deceived you into thinking that there will be no accounting.

Christ's death and resurrection for salvation of man is not a trivial matter. Maybe you only wish that it would be a trivial matter not worthy to consider.

But Christ is not a trivial Person or His work a trivial matter. It is full of weighty significance.
jaywill
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07 Aug '11 12:402 edits
==============================
If you jump out of the window of a five story building do you hold the physics teacher of having a personal threat against you, that the law of gravity will smash you upon the pavement ?

That doesn't make sense. Could you rephrase that please?
===============================

The point of the analogy is that laws and the enforcement of them is not a matter of respect of persons.

One who breaks the law of God can be saved. But as an unreconciled enemy of His law he is cursed.

A cursed person is vile, worthless, hateful, beyond recovery and wicked. This is the transgressor of the law of God. So He sent a salvation to save us from remaining forever vile, worthless, hateful, beyond recovery and wicked - cursed.

A cursed sinner is shut off from good. He is shut up to evil, He is devoted to vengence which is righteous. Retribution is measured out to the law breaker.

"Depart from me you cursed into the etenal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels" .

He goes with his leader for whom the eternal punishment was prepared. He will not be removed from that state through the salvation of Christ. So he goes where his leader goes, into the eternal punishment of the eternal fire.

"Depart from me, you cursed ..." means to God's plan of the unverse in His perfect will, this rebel sinner who will not be saved is beyond recovery. He is cursed.

It is a just recompense. And the condemned sinner will realize that it is a just recompense.

There is a salvation in the Son of God. There is a recovery. There is a saving in Jesus. That is the good news. But the sheer power of your own will exists to recieve Christ or reject Christ. His love is there. His righteous procedure is there. But you and I have the power to refuse or receive this salvation.
VoidSpirit
Windsor, Ontario
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08 Aug '11 02:04
Originally posted by Nicksten
[b]The reason why God got ticked off (I like that expression) is that ALL Adam and Eve had to do was obey God's ONE rule - to not eat the fruit. ONE rule? And they couldn't even resist?
before eating from the tree, they didn't know any better. it's like commanding a dog not to lick from a bowl, it does so anyway so you punish him, his puppies, his puppies's puppies... and so on ad infinitum.

but then, you think... i should stop punishing these puppies, so i'll beat my son instead and all the puppies who accept that i beat the crap out of my son will be forgiven.
RJHinds
The Near Genius
Fort Gordon
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08 Aug '11 03:01
Originally posted by VoidSpirit
before eating from the tree, they didn't know any better. it's like commanding a dog not to lick from a bowl, it does so anyway so you punish him, his puppies, his puppies's puppies... and so on ad infinitum.

but then, you think... i should stop punishing these puppies, so i'll beat my son instead and all the puppies who accept that i beat the crap out of my son will be forgiven.
They knew better and if you had read Genesis, you would know
that they knew better.