Evidence for God?

Originally posted by sonship

97% of Pakistan's population is Muslim.

The overwhelming likelihood is that, if you had been born there to Muslim parents, you would have been a Muslim,

You cannot go totally by this.

For centuries if one was born in China the overwhelming likelihood is that one never heard of Jesus. Since the prayers of many Christians, since the ...[text shortened]... explanation to the evidence of God's existence.

Your promise has not been kept too long.

I have kept my promise completely. You just didn't understand the terms of my promise.

And I can't recall offering an alternative explanation to any evidence provided for God's existence. So you just made that bit up.

Which is not unusual.

Oh dear.

You think evidence is the same as 'why I personally believe in the God of the Bible'.

What's wrong with that ?

Let's see if a thought experiment would help.

What have you ?

Imagine if there was a being with no innate prejudices or assumptions about which God is the true God.

So it asks you and a Muslim 'What is the evidence that your God is the true one?'

You answer 'My evidence is Jesus Christ.'

The Muslim answers 'My evidence is Muhammad'.

Would you expect that this being would consider either of those positions as evidence supporting the view in favor of Christianity or Islam?

No, nor would I. So your example fails the conditions I set.

I am not sure the point here.

The original question was about evidence for the existence of God.
It was not evidence for the veracity of Christianity.

I said evidence for God's being real is Jesus Christ.

I guess it doesn't hit me how you are using this complaint.
The question was not evidence for "YOUR God" per se but for God, anyone's God, everyone's God whether willingly or unwillingly.

Maybe you're smarter than me and grasp some irony that I cannot detect here.

And that brings me to another point. Atheists often are very elitist. It seems that they believe that only very intelligent nimble minded people can grasp the most important truths of life.

I mean to really know truth you have to know quantum physics, be conversant in the multiverse, know Darwinism inside out, be thoroughly versed in ancient Roman politics, have a couple of Phds. in Biology, be perceptive in graduate level philosophical analysis.

Often the atheist is very much an elitist.

Now if only those who could explain what water is before they could drink ...
Now if only those who could explain air before they could breath ...

Now if only those who could explain light before they could see,
Digestion before they could eat,
Reproduction before they could have children,
etc. then only a very very few highly educated people could have a chance at these fortunes.

I believe God would make Himself knowable in a manner less elite, as the most essential things in the natural world like air, water, light, food.

Jesus Christ exemplifies to me this broad, wide scoped opportunity to channel the most people into ascertaining the truth about God.

I think the way of knowing the most important truths about God and life to the average intellectual skeptical type frequenting Forums is much more a matter of excluding the commoners in favor of a very skinny group of qualified elite.

Originally posted by Rank outsider
I imagine you do.

And it will be the same 'evidence' that followers of the innumerable other gods believe demonstrates that their God is the one true God.

I mean, can you name one piece of 'evidence' that your God is the one true God which could not be claimed with equal validity by followers of another god?

If not, in what sense is it evidence?

First of all, you have already stated, albeit somewhat obliquely, that you don't believe there is evidence, so therefore why bother presenting you with any evidence at all?

Secondly, what makes you think it is a "piece" of evidence? Is that all you need is a piece of evidence and then you will believe?

I think not.

I have a question for you though, and perhaps then we might get somewhere with this line of reasoning. What "piece" of evidence would convince you of the existence of God? And not just any God either. The God. The only God.

Can you think of what kind of evidence that might be?

Originally posted by josephw
First of all, you have already stated, albeit somewhat obliquely, that you don't believe there is evidence, so therefore why bother presenting you with any evidence at all?

Why would anyone who has already got evidence be asking if you can present any? You're not making any sense. Try not being so defensive.

Secondly, what makes you think it is a "piece" of evidence? Is that all you need is a piece of evidence and then you will believe?
I don't think he said anything about believing, he is just asking if you can present any evidence. Why must he promise to believe before you can present evidence? Either you have evidence, and you can present it, or you don't, and you won't.

I have a question for you though, and perhaps then we might get somewhere with this line of reasoning. What "piece" of evidence would convince you of the existence of God? And not just any God either. The God. The only God.

Can you think of what kind of evidence that might be?
I actually don't know what would convince me. It would have to be pretty water tight because I have seen my share of misleading evidence (for things other than God), and seen my share of magic shows etc, and so I would want to rule out other explanations first.

Originally posted by Rank outsider
I have kept my promise completely. You just didn't understand the terms of my promise.

And I can't recall offering an alternative explanation to any evidence provided for God's existence. So you just made that bit up.

Which is not unusual.

The dialogue with Cal got a little involved in our exchange.

97% of Pakistan's population is Muslim.

The overwhelming likelihood is that, if you had been born there to Muslim parents, you would have been a Muslim,

In other words any evidence I find convincing is nullified simply because of where I was born and raised.

An alternative explanation of the impact of ANY evidence I might find convincing for God's existence.

Right ?

Originally posted by josephw
First of all, you have already stated, albeit somewhat obliquely, that you don't believe there is evidence, so therefore why bother presenting you with any evidence at all?

Secondly, what makes you think it is a "piece" of evidence? Is that all you need is a piece of evidence and then you will believe?

I think not.

I have a question for you though, God either. The God. The only God.

Can you think of what kind of evidence that might be?

Seriously, did you read my posts?

First of all, you have already stated, albeit somewhat obliquely, that you don't believe there is evidence

I stated, in my first post:

No, I believe there is, as a matter of fact, no evidence for god.

On what planet is this statement “oblique”?

so therefore why bother presenting you with any evidence at all?

Because, unlike many theists, I will change my mind if evidence can be presented that my views are incorrect. Now, I know that you, sonship and KellyJay probably won’t believe me when I say this, but it is true nonetheless.

Secondly, what makes you think it is a "piece" of evidence? Is that all you need is a piece of evidence and then you will believe?
I think not.

Where did I say that a piece of evidence would make me believe? Seriously where did I say this, or even suggest it?

I asked for a piece, as I believe that there is a not a single solitary piece of evidence to support the existence of god. If you could show me there is just one, then I would have to re-evaluate my position.

Which might bring me one step closer to your god. That alone should tempt you to try and provide at least one piece on evidence.

Can you think of what kind of evidence that might be?

I can think of loads. If it could be proven, for example, that prayers to Jesus were answered, but prayers to other gods weren’t this would provide evidence for both the existence of god and the existence of the Christian god as the one true God. But this is not the case.

Originally posted by sonship
The dialogue with Cal got a little involved in our exchange.

97% of Pakistan's population is Muslim.

The overwhelming likelihood is that, if you had been born there to Muslim parents, you would have been a Muslim,

In other words any evidence I find convincing is nullified simply because of where I was born and raised.

An ...[text shortened]... tion of the impact of ANY evidence I might find convincing for God's existence.

Right ?

The terms of my enquiry were for:

one piece of 'evidence' that could not be claimed by followers of almost any other religion (with the appropriate modifications e.g. change "Bible" to "Qu'ran" etc).

So far, all the evidence that has been offered for belief in the Christian faith fails the terms of my enquiry.

I do not need to provide an alternative explanation of any evidence offered to show that it does not meet the terms of my enquiry.

So, some posters have said 'the earth' as evidence. Surely, you can see that this does not meet the terms of my enquiry. But I do not need to offer an alternative explanation of how the earth came into existence, as any Muslim could offer this as evidence as well.

Agreed?

one piece of 'evidence' that could not be claimed by followers of almost any other religion (with the appropriate modifications e.g. change "Bible" to "Qu'ran" etc).

I think I don't really understand this.
And it is not because I am not perfectly aware that there are other "monotheistic" faiths besides my own.

What you are getting at, I don't seem yet to understand.

So far, all the evidence that has been offered for belief in the Christian faith fails the terms of my enquiry.

Hmmm. So far what you are getting " is ... for ... belief in the Christian faith ..." ?

You ask for evidence for God ... and then you say "Oh, that is only for the Christian faith."

This is kind of tricky. If I offer "one piece" it is disqualified because someone of non-Christian faith could say the same thing. But you want a piece of evidence for the existence of God ... period.

I'm sorry Rank. This is kind of an elusive task you have out here.

Are you saying that people of different faiths cannot agree on the definition of God ? Is that what its all about ?

I do not need to provide an alternative explanation of any evidence offered to show that it does not meet the terms of my enquiry.

So, some posters have said 'the earth' as evidence. Surely, you can see that this does not meet the terms of my enquiry.

No. I do NOT see that as disqualified. I am wrestling with me saying "Jesus Christ" and am not even sure that should be disqualified.

But for someone who is a Moslem to say "The existence of the earth is evidence for God's existence" immediately cutting off possibility that a non-religious, or agnostic, or Norse Viking, or Zorastorian, or Bahai, or Jew, or ancient Greek philosopher, or Chinese philosopher, or Unification Church, or Scientologist, or a free thinking theist, or Satanist for that matter or anyone else submitting that, doesn't quite make sense to me yet.

Hmmm. Evidence that no one of another faith tradition could use ?

What is this kind of parameter designed to do for you ?

But I do not need to offer an alternative explanation of how the earth came into existence, as any Muslim could offer this as evidence as well.

Agreed?

I don't know. I think we have to come to some agreement on what we mean by God.

" I mean give me your one piece of evidence for the existence of Abe Lincoln which could not be used by a person of a political party other than your own. "

Is that like what you want ?

Originally posted by sonship

one piece of 'evidence' that could not be claimed by followers of almost any other religion (with the appropriate modifications e.g. change "Bible" to "Qu'ran" etc).

I think I don't [b]really understand this.
And it is not because I am not perfectly aware that there are other "monotheistic" faiths besides my own.

What tical party other than your own. "

Is that like what you want ?[/b]

Let me summarise how we got here.

The OP asked if there is evidence for God.

I said no.

Josephw then posted that there was evidence for God, and even more so for the one true God.

At this point, I said that any evidence for the one true God was evidence that followers of any other religion could cite with the same level of validity. I challenged him to give me an example where this was not true. So the terms of the debate moved on a bit then, but I had assumed that when KellyJay posted 'Evidence for God?', this was a reference to the Christian God.

Some Christians tell me that if I believe in the god of the Qu'ran I will go to hell. Some Muslims tell me that if I believe if the God of the Bible I will go to hell.

So the religions are mutually exclusive. If there is no way to determine which is the one true God, then I may as well cross my fingers, live a good life and hope that either god does not exist, or is one of the myriad of other gods that might exist that won't send me to hell.

So I asked for one piece of evidence that could show that the Christian God is the one true God that a Muslim could not equally say is evidence that the God of the Qu'ran is the one true God.

So if you say that 'the earth' is evidence for the Christian god as the one true god, this in no way provides evidence that meets my test, as the Muslim can say the same thing, and there is no way this helps to determine which is the one true god.

By contrast, if you could demonstrate that Biblical prophesies had come true, and Muslim prophesies hadn't, then this might count as evidence.

But simply saying, as Galilee said, that Biblical prophesies have come true does not meet the terms of my enquiry, as many Muslims (as I have shown) say the same thing about their faith.

And I would say the same to a Muslim if he joined the thread. Or indeed any other religion.

Originally posted by sonship
[b Why the millions in Africa?
Why the millions in India?
Why the millions in Russia and in the former Soviet Union ?
Why the Far East and the Middle East has Christians, and growing ?

[/b]

Poor ignorant people with dreary lives.

Why the rapidly declining numbers in Western Europe and Australasia?

Originally posted by KellyJay
Do you believe there is any evidence for God?


I'm not asking for evidence, I just want to know if anything is acceptable
to you!
Kelly

Well, as always, Kelly, it depends on what you mean by “God” (and the specifics). There is no evidence that could validate a notion of God (or gods) that is incoherent or (on analysis) empty of the kind of content to which evidence could be laid.

With that said, I honestly don’t know what kind of evidence. But there are god-concepts that I do consider. But they are a far cry from what you think of as God (I think that’s fair, after all the years we’ve been communicating with each other on here); there is a particular Jewish nondualistic concept that I explore—it would not be “the God of the Bible”, but it would be “the God of the Torah (written and oral), if you get that. And it does not require any notions of “supernaturality”.

But, with regard to what I understand as your idea of God, I am atheist (which is why I can post both as a (quasi-) Jew and as an atheist, as the context dictates).

Originally posted by vistesd
Well, as always, Kelly, it depends on what you mean by “God” (and the specifics). There is no evidence that could validate a notion of God (or gods) that is incoherent or (on analysis) empty of the kind of content to which evidence could be laid.

With that said, I honestly don’t know what kind of evidence. But there are god-concepts that I do con ...[text shortened]... ist (which is why I can post both as a (quasi-) Jew and as an atheist, as the context dictates).

Not asking you about what I believe.
I'm asking if you can accept any evidence for God?
What I believe rests just with me.
I'm sure "God" could mean something else to one over the another, for
example some used to worship the sun, others pieces of wood, you can
see the sun and handle the wood.
The sun and wood would be what I suppose gods, which are different than
God.
Kelly

Originally posted by Rank outsider
No, I believe there is, as a matter of fact, no evidence for god.

I would, however, accept evidence for god's existence if there were some.

How about the fulfilled prophecies from the Holy Bible and especially those within the last century. They began in 1948 with the establishment of a nation in one day with a pure language. I am not sure the Hebrew language of Israel is a pure language or not. But it may be. If so, it fulfills a prophecy from the Holy Bible. That is evidence of God.

I also believe the Shroud of Turin proves that Jesus was crucified and rose from the dead and that resurrection process resulted in the image on the burial cloth. If true, that is evidence of God.

There is no other religion that can point to something like this as proof of their religion.

The Instructor

Originally posted by wolfgang59
Poor ignorant people with dreary lives.

[b]Why the rapidly declining numbers in Western Europe and Australasia?[/b]

Wishful thinking wolfgang. On your part mere wishful thinking.

How can we have dreary lives who enjoy God ?
"Joy unspeakable and full of glory!"

Originally posted by sonship
How can we have dreary lives who enjoy God ?
[b] "Joy unspeakable and full of glory!" [/b]

You can either have your millions of Christians in Africa, or you can have your happy Christians. You can't have both. 🙂