destiny vs free will

Originally posted by twhitehead
Firstly our concepts of free will are vastly different so a yes or no answer MUST be qualified. So NO, under MY understanding of free will, my current knowledge of Hitlers future does not prove that he had no free will.
Under YOUR understanding of free will it is doubtful that he had free will as your description states specifically that there must be mo ...[text shortened]... gh possibly without the use of Hitler as a specific example. Maybe that is what you really want?

CORRECTION--- (IN BRACKETS)

"Under YOUR understanding of free will it is doubtful that he had free will as your description states specifically that there must be more than one (potential) future timeline available to him."

I include the word potential because I do not believe in multiple timelines. There is only one timeline , but that timeline can be potentially many things , it's only after it gets formed that it becomes a specific timeline. There is only one Hitler and one timeline but that timeline could have been one where he didn't kill himself. The timeline in which Hitler didn't kill himself does not exist and will never exist but it could have existed.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Firstly our concepts of free will are vastly different so a yes or no answer MUST be qualified. So NO, under MY understanding of free will, my current knowledge of Hitlers future does not prove that he had no free will.
Under YOUR understanding of free will it is doubtful that he had free will as your description states specifically that there must be mo ...[text shortened]... gh possibly without the use of Hitler as a specific example. Maybe that is what you really want?

You mistakenly think that it is logically neccessary for more than one timeline to exist in order for Hitler to have more than one option to his actions.This presents a model of timelines as something that one walks along that is laid out in front of you like a channel cut for a river to flow down. My vision of a timeline is one where a SUV cuts a track across a desert leaving a trail behind it , thus forming it's own timeline.

Unfortunately your model is not a model I subscribe to. I put it to you that Hitler's timeline formed as a result of his actions and that some of his actions were not inevitable. Just as an SUV can make many sorts of tracks across the sand , so can Hitler's life track across the sands of time making it's own timeline. This model means that there are many (potential) tracks that can be made through the sand but unfortunately they won't exist because there can be only one track.

Now , your model may be correct , mine may be correct but since you are making the catagorical statement (eg the thread starts by saying that free will and God knowing is incompatible) then the onus is on you to show how my model is self contradictory.

So , when I am asking you for a yes or no answer on this I am asking you to use my model of free will (which implies that more than one outcome is possible based on the agents choice) and my understanding of timelines. You are free to not use my understanding of timelines if you can show that your model is the only possible way that timelines can possibly work.

So Hitler stands with the gun , he has free will (my version) , he really can shoot or not shoot , if he shoots then his shot will become part of your history of his life if he doesn't then his trial will be part of your history of his life. You know that he does in fact shoot , the timeline (my model) is set by him as he shoots. The timeline in which he doesn't shoot never exists , you (in 2007) now know his future and everything he does. Please explain why this scenario is logically impossible and self contradictory? I doubt whether you can show catagorically how this is impossible , you had better because your argument rests on it.

(BTW- Another way of looking at this would be to ask how is it possible for you NOT to know Hitler's future whether he had your free will , my free will or a predetermined timeline? You are BOUND to know what Hitler did WHATEVER model one applies to Hitlers choices. How? Because of your privileged position in time in relation to Hitler . You can run any scenario you like and they will end with the same outcome , you knowing that Hitler shot himself in 1945. This tells us one very simple but significant fact ie that it is impossible to learn anything at all about free will or determinism or compatabilism simple by knowing someone's future because we could never tell the difference. As long as the information is obtained by virtue of Hitler having performed a particular action in 1945 and is reliant on Hitler actually shooting himself in 1945 then we are none the wiser on anything )