Christs parables

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
yes, even water, if it drips with constancy can make a hole in a large rock.

🙂

I thought it was common knowledge among Christians that when the Bible says for ever, or for ever and ever or everlasting or eternal it is often for an age or a period or some era.

Jaywill himself admits to the punishment being for 1000 years and then proceeds as if 1000 years proves that it is for ever and ever. Clearly the ability to distinguish between a finite period and eternity is lacking in the minds of some.

Originally posted by Rajk999
I thought it was common knowledge among Christians that when the Bible says for ever, or for ever and ever or everlasting or eternal it is often for an age or a period or some era.

Jaywill himself admits to the punishment being for 1000 years and then proceeds as if 1000 years proves that it is for ever and ever. Clearly the ability to distinguish between a finite period and eternity is lacking in the minds of some.

I would go further than that, i would say the ability to distinguish fantasy from reality is lacking.

Sonship, first know, that I have a great deal of admiration for you ... ".

It is nice to have respect and admiration. Thankyou. Visa versa. However, what I am really interested in is the Bible best understood - respect for God's revelation.

Now when you put a very long post which is kind of like "Here's Everything I Know on the Subject" one has to weed through -

1.) strawman arguments - ie. positions that all do not have Ie. "people die and go to heaven forever."

2.) weaker arguments - which are time consuming to address and less significant.

3.) arguments which are legitimate and should be responded to.

So your paste was a formidable volume of comments. But for discussion's sake I would have to weed through the noise and get down to the more valid objections. I still have not taken time to completely do that with your three big paste jobs.

Another problem is specific questions which I pose which are ignored, swept aside by you or Robbie and instead volumes of additional issues are put on the table.

Oh well. Believe as you wish. Here are some replies to your lattest words to me.

... bible very strongly supports the idea of annihilation.
Lets start with the Old Testament...
Ps 37:10

10 A little while, and the wicked will be no more;
though you look for them, they will not be found.
NIV

This depends upon what is really meant. In Daniel 12:2 Daniel is told -
"And many of those who are sleeping in the dust of the ground will awake, some to life eternal and some to reproach, to eternal contempt."

If these wicked cannot be found in a total sense of non-existence then there could be no "reproach" or "eternal contempt" had by anyone regarding them after they "awake".

And Revelation 22 says that the wicked are located and found in a place - the lake of fire - "But the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and fornicators and sorcerers and idolaters and all the false, their part will be in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

The word of God tells us WHERE the wicked can be located.
See also 21:15 - "Outside [of New Jerusalem] are the dogs and the sorcerers and the fornicators and the murderers and the idolaters and everyone who loves and makes a lie."

We are therefore TOLD where the wicked can be found. So Psalm 37:10 must not mean complete non-existence makes the wicked impossible to locate.

Prov 10:25

25 When the storm has swept by, the wicked are gone,
but the righteous stand firm forever.

This too does not necessarily indicate the non-existence of the punished wicked. Of course their influence has by then been totally removed from the earth.

Isaiah's prophecy of the time of the new heaven and new earth says -

"They will go forth and look on the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against Me; For their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched; And they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh." (Isa. 66:24)

The wicked are in bad shape and totally defeated. But if people can go forth and gaze upon them they should not be totally non-existent.

The bible clearly states they are GONE, and cannot be found. If one were to look in Gehenna, then they could be found, would they not?

Isaiah 66:24 told us essentially that = "they will go forth and look on the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against Me ... they shall be an abhorrence ..."

Notice that this action takes place in the new heavens and new earth - "For as the new heavens and new earth, which I make, remain before Me ...from new moon to new moon all flesh will come to bow down before Me, says Jehovah. And they will go forth and look upon the men who have rebelled against Me ... " (v.22)

Ps 92:7
7 that though the wicked spring up like grass
and all evildoers flourish,
they will be forever destroyed.

In like of the entire Bible this must be the destruction of well-being rather than the destruction of being.

Certainly the ones upon whom the people will go forth and look on in the flame are destroyed as to their well being. It is going beyond to say that they are non-existent for their part is in the lake of fire (Rev. 21:8)

" ... their part will be in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

If they are non-existent in an absolute sense they would have no part ANYWHERE and in NOTHING.

Ie. the monsters Godzilla, Mothra, and Dr. Freeze I think we can say really do not exist at all. We would not say that their part will be in the lake of fire. They do not exist and have no part in anything anywhere except in the imagination.

The Devil has his part in the lake of fire. He exists.
A non-existent person does not have his part in the lake of fire.

Ps 145:20
20 The Lord watches over all who love him,
but all the wicked he will destroy.

The sinners in Sodom and Gomorrah were certainly destroyed. Yet Peter says that they are being kept under punishment for the day of judgment -

"The Lord knows ... how to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment." ( 2 Peter 2:9)

Peter is speaking of Sodom and Gomorrah who were "condemned them to ruin " and having reduced their cities "to ashes". They were destroyed yet God knows how to keep them under punishment for the day of judgment.

Some may argue that that "day of judgment" had to be the day Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed. But I think verse 4 argues that the last judgment is being indicated -

"For if God did not spare the angels who sinned but delivered them to gloomy pits, having cast them down to Tartarus, they being kept for judgment ..."

The context, I think, argues that those destroyed in Sodom and Gomorrah, like the certain especially sinful angels, are being kept until the time of the last judgment. Obviously being destroyed did not render them totally non-existent in both cases.

Double check with Jude.

"And angels who did not keep their own principality but abandoned their own dwelling place, He has kept in eternal bonds under gloom for the judgment of the great day;

How Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, ... are set forth as an example, undergoing the penalty of eternal fire." (Jude 6,7)

Peter's kept "under punishment" must mean Jude's "undergoing the penalty of eternal fire."

This is logical for if those like the rich man in Luke 16 are in flame and partake of the last resurrection to then come to the great white throne judgment, they go from having their soul in some fire to being re-united soul and body to continue to be in fire in the lake of fire. This then would effectively be their experience of "eternal fire" adding the two places together.

Ezek 18:3-4

3 "As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. 4 For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son — both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die.

There is nothing in this passage that indicates the soul dying forbids the body and soul being reunited in the last resurrection, judged for not having their names in the book of life, and subsequently thrown into the lake of fire.

"And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened; and another scroll was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by the things which were written in the scrolls, according to their works." (Rev. 20:12)

"And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire." (v.15)

The sinning soul that died is not exempted from Revelation 20:12,15 necessarily.

And the living souls in Matthew 25:41,46 go alive into the fire. And that "eternal fire" prepared for the devil and his angels is precisely the "eternal punishment" of verse 46.

Those sinning souls are not exempted from the "eternal fire" which is the "eternal punishment".

And of course the sinning souls of Antichrist and the False prophet are cast alive into the lake of fire -

"And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet ... these two were cast ALIVE into the lake of fire, which burns with brimstone." (Rev. 19:20)

Whether they were killed by such action or not is not my concern at the moment. I only point out that those sinning souls were not exempt from the lake of fire. And they are still there, not reduced to non-existence precisely 1000 years latter when they are joined by their boss Satan.

"And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where also the beast and the false prophet were: and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." (20:10)

This is after the 1,000 years (20:7). And the fact that "THEY" will be tormented forever and ever proves that the former TWO are still there after 1,000 years of punishment.

For length sake I will stop here.

Originally posted by sonship
For length sake I will stop here.

Too late. 😞

Originally posted by wolfgang59
Too late. 😞

What you might consider is how long eternity is.

But we do not throw out the baby with the bath water because of that.

And up until now, I did not see you explain WHICH words in the verses I submitted were the Satanic ones. I think you know that all the words were spoken by the Lord Jesus Christ. Read His word again.

"Go away from Me, you who are cursed into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (v.41)

" ...[text shortened]... you ashamed of being ridiculed because you believe them ? Or maybe you do not believe them?

I did not say there were Satanic verses anywhere in the bible.
What I said/meant was Satan can twist meanings of verses through people, forming traditions employed by men, as they are handed down generation after generation.

Yes, the copy and paste was just that, but he articulated my thoughts quite well, and since I am slow at typing I used it and noted the link.
He is one of the best Old Testament scholars I know, and I stand by what is written despite your disagreement.
He reads Hebrew and Greek and has good insight into biblical customs and meanings.
I am finished debating this with you, for the time being...again we will agree to disagree..CB

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I did not say there were Satanic verses anywhere in the bible.
What I said/meant was Satan can twist meanings of verses through people, forming traditions employed by men, as they are handed down generation after generation.

Yes, the copy and paste was just that, but he articulated my thoughts quite well, and since I am slow at typing I used it and n ...[text shortened]...
I am finished debating this with you, for the time being...again we will agree to disagree..CB

I agree with sonship that eternal torment means it lasts forever and does not end. It is the same for eternal life, which lasts forever without end.

However, the author of the following article points out that when it comes to the final destination of the wicked, or unrighteous, Christians over the past two millenniums have divided themselves into three beliefs:

1. Eternal Torment
2. Eternal Death (Annihilationism)
3. Salvation of the whole world through Jesus Christ.

Each of these views can be supported with Scriptures. But he claims that there is no true victory in either teaching 1 or 2, not for the God Who is Love.

He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

(Isaiah 25:8 KJV)

He says that the two leading denominations of the teaching of Annihilationism, (Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventists) had their origins in the latter half of the nineteenth century. It was at this time evolution destroyed many peoples faith. Many denominations lost thousands of members. One of the principles of evolution is the possibility of matter being created apart from God. That everything came out of nothing. This principle made it easier for people to accept the doctrine of annihilation, which is a return to nothing, total destruction.

However, the scriptures are very clear there is no thing that is not:

"out of Him, and through Him, and unto Him." (Rom. 11:36) And again, "For by Him were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist . . . For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, and by him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross." (Col. 1:16-20) And again, for a triple confirmation, "for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him, and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live." (1 Cor. 8:6)

No, things do not come out of nothing, as evolutionists conclude, all things come out of God. Will He take a part of Himself and utterly destroy it or will all things return unto Him through Jesus Christ?

Another point he would like us to consider is this:

When we have a pet that becomes so ill that we feel it would be better to end it's life, we say things like, "It would be best for the cat if we put it to sleep." While this may sound very humane, the fact is, we are killing the cat.

The annihilationists get uncomfortable when someone uses plain speech like, "God is going to annihilate, utterly destroy, 'nuke' or disintegrate them." Why do they feel uncomfortable inside? Could it be their conscience telling them their doctrine is wrong? Could it be that dozens of scriptures pass through their minds like "love your enemies," and "love never fails," etc. And they find themselves repulsed by their own beliefs? You see, if annihilation is a true doctrine, then all the butchers of the world like Hitler begin to become justified by God actions. If God can burn to death His enemies, and we are made in His image, then Hitler was just conforming to the image of God. After all, the Jews were Hitler's "enemies." When bloody Mary killed thousands of Protestants, it has been said her comment was something to the effect of, "I only do here on earth what my God will do to them in Heaven."

He seems to blame mistranslation for the eternal torment view. If you are interested in the details, read the linked article below.

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html

HalleluYah !!! Praise the LORD! Glory be to God! Holy! Holy! Holy!

The Instructor

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I would go further than that, i would say the ability to distinguish fantasy from reality is lacking.

That ought to be the new slogan for this forum.

Spirituality
Post here if you have trouble distinguishing fantasy from reality.

Originally posted by Rajk999
I thought it was common knowledge among Christians that when the Bible says for ever, or for ever and ever or everlasting or eternal it is often for an age or a period or some era.

Jaywill himself admits to the punishment being for 1000 years and then proceeds as if 1000 years proves that it is for ever and ever. Clearly the ability to distinguish between a finite period and eternity is lacking in the minds of some.

I thought it was common knowledge among Christians that when the Bible says for ever, or for ever and ever or everlasting or eternal it is often for an age or a period or some era.

The New Testament shows that it can clearly contrast between eternal and temporary in a few places.

"While we look not at the things which are seen but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal, (lasting but for a time ) the things which are not see are eternal" (2 Cor. 4:18)

Here a clear contrast between the Greek aionios , expressing forever and the temporary, is exemplified.

"things ... aionios" verses "things ... [temporal] "

"Eternal" is set in opposition to things which last but for a time.

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens." (5:1)

Here to the opposition of eternal against that which lasts only for a time.

"For perhaps he therefore departed for a season, that you should receive him for ever, not as a servant, but above a servant, a beloved brother." (Philem. 15)

Here again the contrast between that which lasts for ever and that which lasts only for the temporary.

We may understand aionios applying to God make and applied to punishment both indicate that which is never ending -

"The revelation of the mystery" which "now is made manifest," " according to the commandment of the everlasting God." (Rom. 16:25,26)

" ... the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt. 25:41)

"These shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (v.46)

In Romans 16 and Matthew 25 then the "God," "the ... fire," the "punishment," and " the ... life" all take on above the attribute of aionios - eternal.

Jaywill himself admits to the punishment being for 1000 years and then proceeds as if 1000 years proves that it is for ever and ever. Clearly the ability to distinguish between a finite period and eternity is lacking in the minds of some.

You imagine a problem that is not there. I said the antichrist and false prophet undergo 1,000 years of punishment PLUS the forever and ever in addition afterwards. There is nothing wrong with saying that the forever and ever started with the 1,000 years since it is added to everlastingly.

You could say that eternal begins at any time for those two. One thousand plus infinity is equal to infinity. Two thousand plus infinity is also equal to infinity.

I don't see your problem.

Furthermore the Bible does not always wait until some future time to say the believers have eternal life. But John writes the Christian that at that time he wrote (2,000 some years ago for them) they had eternal life:

"I have written these things to you that you may know that you have eternal life, to you who believe into the name of the Son of God." (1 John 5:13)

The enjoyment of eternal life has already begun for those who believe into the name of the Son of God, for "Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him and he in God." (4:15)

We have a foretaste of what we shall enjoy a fuller taste of in the future. But the eternal life has begun already.

Originally posted by sonship
What you might consider is how long eternity is.

A tad longer than it takes to read your posts.

Originally posted by wolfgang59
A tad longer than it takes to read your posts.

Slow reader I see.

Originally posted by sonship
Slow reader I see.

A slow learner at the least.

The Instructor

Originally posted by SwissGambit
That ought to be the new slogan for this forum.

[b]Spirituality
Post here if you have trouble distinguishing fantasy from reality.[/b]

😀