27 Jul '05 23:13>
Originally posted by LemonJelloOk L J,
[b]God can not be eliminated, but many people do succeed in alienating themselves from God by working so hard to eliminate Him.
are you then rejecting the notion that there may be nothing to eliminate in the first place?
I am indeed convinced He does exist. Problem?
no problem at all. likewise, there should be no problem if someone e ...[text shortened]... [/b]
i don't think it would change the fact that there is plenty more room for improvement. [/b]
There are several points in here where we are simply not connecting on the communication level, let alone the idea level. I can't afford the time to address all of them.
But...
yes, I am rejecting the idea that there is nothing to eliminate. Obviously, I believe in God (as do the demons). I don't mind being classified (if that's what you mean by pigeon-holing). Please don't put words in my mouth: I haven't called you any sort of heathen.
I don't speak to whether God had more than one choice, but that He did make only one choice in His creative design. He gave us free will. He doesn't give up omnipotence by choosing a certain route. He exercises it. And the problem with bbar's MP was there; He defined it with two contradictory choices. I just found a problem there (in my opinion).
In my view, His act was morally perfect because I can not find fault with it. He is not responsible for any harm that followed His initial act. Adam and Eve showed their moral imperfection by their choosing to separate themselves from what they knew to be moral perfection (obedience to their creator).
If one chooses to allow, just for a moment, that maybe God is godly (MP), then one can begin to see another explanation for the suffering in the world. Maybe it is too hard to use the word sin in these days, but why could sin (any choice that is outside of God's good and perfect will for us) not be a real entity that exists and has its evil effect on humanity (suffering).
I think furthermore, that it is not God's omnipotence that He uses to address our planetary suffering; it is His grace! "What end to suffering?" you say. Well that is what Jesus was sent by the Father to address directly! Not as a cop to gather all the bad guys and lock them up (especially since most of the badness is most often hidden in our hearts!), but to draw us into choosing His way through repentance and offering us heaven; the perfect, suffering free zone!
You're right. God did not just sit back and watch us ruin ourselves and the planet! The very day of the fall He announced that there would be salvation coming. Later, when the world was
'full of violence' He did start over with Noah, but all of that followed from
Aam and Eve's choice.
His initial choice, according to the established doctrine of the church, was perfect.
I agree with you that God can be questioned. But let's always hope that (if there is a God), His answers will always be satisfactory! If you or I could find fault with god, then once in a while I
would even beat him at chess. Now that is scairy!
In the same vein, I don't think I would ever be right if I approach God to correct Him.