What's the harm?

Originally posted by FabianFnas
Sorry, I brought in spiritual matters in the Science Forum.
Won't happen again, sorry.

Sorry, I did it first actually. My second post is still there, though, and there's no religion involved. 🙂

Originally posted by Palynka
Sorry, I did it first actually. My second post is still there, though, and there's no religion involved. 🙂

Let's do some exorsism to get rid of all religious talk from the Science Forum... 😞

Originally posted by FabianFnas
We have to know that many modern medicines are coming from herbal medicine. I can give you examples, but I think youk know what I mean. So herbal medicine is not bad per se.

You are against non science medicin of more than one reason:

(1) People are making big money out of peoples ignorance of meaningless substances. I don't like this either.

(2) ...[text shortened]... his Ginco. If a surgery is planned he will tell his doctor about it. This is not mumbo jumbo.

No, herbal medicine isn't bad per se - my main qualm about it is that since it is unregulated then there isn't any way to know whether someone is lying or feeding you crap about what you're taking.

Herbal medicine can be standard medicine since it can have a real effect, but the problem is getting the doses and the products tested to make sure how effective they are (if at all) and at what doses.

Of the numbered points you made the only comments I have are:

2) As long as the real sideeffects are known then there is no problem. This goes back to the problem with the herbal medicines not having any regulation really.

3) I don't think a doctor should lie to a patient, no. I don't care if you do what a doctor says and take homeopathic cures. The problem is when you think that the homeopathic cures are a valid replacement for real medicine and I think this is dangerous.

4) This is more of a conservation issue and research should and could be done to find synthetic alternatives to these (assuming they can be shown to have a real effect). I don't think we really disagree though.

My main problem is when people don't see things for what they really are. Your friend using Gingko biloba isn't a problem really as long as he doesn't see it as a miracle cure when it's not. If a cure did come for tinnitus then I imagine your friend wouldn't just stick with Gingko and not go for the cure.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
When I know it is a placebo, it doesn't work on me either.
The thing is to believe in it, then it might work.
So a large hefty beer, and I'm fit for any game of chess. 🙂

It was tried on me--twice. So I didn't know it wasn't a placebo, and it didn't work. Therefore my conclusion, based on empirical observation, is that the placebo effect doesn't work on "moi". 😀

Originally posted by PsychoPawn
No, herbal medicine isn't bad per se - my main qualm about it is that since it is unregulated then there isn't any way to know whether someone is lying or feeding you crap about what you're taking.

Herbal medicine can be standard medicine since it can have a real effect, but the problem is getting the doses and the products tested to make sure how eff ...[text shortened]... s then I imagine your friend wouldn't just stick with Gingko and not go for the cure.

You live in Canada so you obviously refer how it is there. I live in Sweden and refer how it is here. Perhaps in Canada it is not regulated as much as it is in Sweden, or perhaps it is the other way around. So perhaps we just see herbal medicine from different viewpoints? Or perhaps it's a cultural thing? Or something. Either way, we cannot go further in our discussion.

As for Ginco Biloba and tinnitus - I'm sure that my friend does the right thing. If he feel a difference, then it doesn't matter if there is a scientific explanation fo it, or if it's just placebo for him. If he took mercury or lobotomy for it, I just would hinder him, placebo or not.

I end my part of the discussion here. It's a pleasure debating with you!

Originally posted by FabianFnas
You live in Canada so you obviously refer how it is there. I live in Sweden and refer how it is here. Perhaps in Canada it is not regulated as much as it is in Sweden, or perhaps it is the other way around. So perhaps we just see herbal medicine from different viewpoints? Or perhaps it's a cultural thing? Or something. Either way, we cannot go further in ...[text shortened]... placebo or not.

I end my part of the discussion here. It's a pleasure debating with you!

I live in the US.

Here the herbal remedy market isn't regulated at all by any governmental agency. Basically, if there is a product that makes a claim and it doesn't do anything for that claim then someone has to sue to get it off the shelves.

That's why many products here make very vague claims that are hard to quantify.

I don't think we really disagree on all that much when it comes down to the brass tacks, as they say.

Originally posted by PsychoPawn
I live in the US.

Here the herbal remedy market isn't regulated at all by any governmental agency. Basically, if there is a product that makes a claim and it doesn't do anything for that claim then someone has to sue to get it off the shelves.

That's why many products here make very vague claims that are hard to quantify.

I don't think we really disagree on all that much when it comes down to the brass tacks, as they say.

But you have the canadian flag...?

In Sweden, we don't sue a lot. But we have laws from the governement that 'helth-medicine' should not cure dangerous conditions, like cancer and stuff. But I'm not really sure, only that dangurous stuff is not sold, by law.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
But you have the canadian flag...?

In Sweden, we don't sue a lot. But we have laws from the governement that 'helth-medicine' should not cure dangerous conditions, like cancer and stuff. But I'm not really sure, only that dangurous stuff is not sold, by law.

I was born and raised in Canada. I live in Chicago now - I moved here about 9 years ago.

It does seem like these things are much more restricted in Sweden (I'm not surprised actually).

I think there is a regulation here that says you can't claim to cure a disease and there are some peddlers of their pseudo science that claim that this regulation is there to keep them from the legitimacy they supposedly deserve.

I think that some alternative medicines can have some effect, I think that we need to do more research on them. Professor Kathy Sykes did a series exploring alternative medicine for the open university in the UK.
http://www.open2.net/alternativemedicine/abouttheseries.html

She found some very interesting things. Using CAT scans she found that acupuncture actually had an effect on the part of the brain that deals with pain. As for herbs, she found that there are some that do actually have a genuine effect.
I have seen for myself the antibiotic properties of garlic. In my lab (I'm a microbiologist) I took some garlic powder and made it into a solution. By putting this into wells in an agar plate seeded with e.coli, after an over night incubation you could see zones of clearing around the wells where the garlic had inhibited the growth of e.coli.
I think that the use of alternative therpaies needs to be looked at in a lot more detail, I also think that there needs to be more regulation.

Acupuncture is I think, more accepted in scientific medicine than other alternative therapys. More research needs to be done on it of course, and with more regulation naturally.

In the UK, alternative therapy is on the increase and there is little regulation on it. You can now do university courses on homeopathy, which is bizzare in my opinion. The main reason it is increasing is becasue with the NHS you get a doctors appointment (if you can) and then you are rushed through in about 5 minutes. With homeopathy practioners and other alternative therapys you generally get an hour or so with the consultant or maybe even longer.

They seem to put alot of effort into patient care even if the medicine is of dubious value. People tend to appreciate this and in fact talking through their problems can often make them feel better... adding to the placebo effect of the therapy itself.

Never underestimate the placebo effect though. I saw an article the other day in new scientist where they believe that even the packaging of the fake pill can have an effect on the effectiveness of the placebo.