How to win form this position?

Hi all,
Couple of weeks ago I played this game and this position arose:



Here white played badly and ends up loosing a piece (which is also interesting for GP's thread on mistakes while attacking or defending. In the game black defended reasonably, and ended up winning the game due to a misplayed attack)

Anyhow I was wondering what you would do as white in this position, do you think white has a good advantage? how do you assess this position? do you think whites attack is strong enough to win or do you think he has to bring his rooks quickly into the action or counter on the queenside? What would you do?

If you are interested in how the position was reached here is the game up till then (can't figure out how to put the pgn-thing to work...):

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 Nf6 4. e5 Nfd7 5. Ndf3 c5 6. c3 Nc6 7. Be3 Be7
8. Bd3 c4 9. Bc2 b5 10. Ne2 b4 11. O-O O-O 12. Qd2 bxc3 13. bxc3 f5
14. Ng5 Bxg5 15. Bxg5 Qa5 16. Qf4 Rf7 17. Qg3 Kh8 18. Nf4 Nf8
19. Qh3 Rb8

At first sight, white has some advantage: two bishops and some kind of attack. However, white has weaknesses too, his pawn on c3 is one, and the second row is not under control either.

Ideas for white: Bd1-h5-e8 and if black plays Rfb7 - Rb2 then Bd7, trying to eliminate the defender knight on f8. But black doesn't have to undergo all this. For instance: 1.Bd1 Rfb7 2.Bh5 Qc7! blocks that idea. White can still play Be8, but black can play Kg8 and counter Qh4 (to prepare Bd7 anyway) with h6. End of attack.

It doesn't have to go that way though, butbased on this line, my second opinion is that black can probably hold, and perhaps even take over on the queenside.

A first glance has me wanting to play g4 to involve the light square bishop but I have not idea how white would respond to the simple reply of Rb2.

Hi Orion.

Just noticed my name mentioned so thought I'd better contribute.

Please post whole game. This may not be the critical position.

Cold view.

Black has unprotected bits on f7 and c6.
Naff Bishop bishop, good Rook.
Cosy King, no sacs on.
Queen nagging on c3.

White has Queen protecting a pawn. (hate to do that with a Queen).
loose c2 Bishop inviting rook to 7th. (Black back rank then hangs).

Use Bishop as loose bits on white squares and it's doing nothing.
no Bxf5 shots on.

Why not moving the bishop ...


Something like Bd1 then Bh5,,,,

Hi O.

I'm back, had to pay visit to my bookie to withdraw my winnings. 🙂

No post yet so will assume game between 1700 players.

The only thing I can think of is: g4

I cant really explain it. I just think g4 is a good idea

Hi O.

I'm going to give what I think is a plauasible continuation between
two under 1700 players.

If you want ultra perfect evaluation - run it through a box.
(but then it's not your game anymore is it?).

It has instructive moments.

Going to let Black run with his Queenside play as White attack does
not look anything till it's too late.

Most (all) of the games I win v -1700 players are because they have
underestimated my attack, over estimated their position.

Plausible moves take me from here.



to here



When Black is dropping the h-pawn and the Queen and Knight, a potent
attacking force, show what they can do.

Do you see the dovetail King trap on d7?



Just played 8...Qd2 (what else) as on the surface it is most active shot.
The Black c-pawn will generate counter-play. (given time) and once the Knight
moves the Black Queen (given a chance) may go to h6 and help her King.

The Queen and Knight mating patterns appear. (Qd8).



If 11...g5 12.Qh7 Ke8 13.Ng3.



You use his undeveloped pieces the Q & N are just brillo.

And another one pops up. (Qe7) I told you these guys were good.



Note here if Kf7 then Qe7+ Kxg6 and Qe8+ spearing the c6 Rook.

Enough of this let's shove him in the dovetail mate.



End of analysis.

That is a way the game may have gone, Black did not even have time to take
that c3 pawn. Nobody can prove otherwise.

And the po-faced ones can snarl and find defences but I'm telling you
this is an under 1700 game any perfect analysis needing computer perfect play
is not going to happen.

Is that what you want? 100% acuracy or honest judgement.

so O.

I'm sitting here quaffing red wine in a happy daze.

(this is better than Irn Bru Robbie - another thread another time).

That shows some of the potential in the postion. If nothing do remember
that a Queen and Knight make a wonderful team and store those mating
patterns.

Thanks for letting me some fun.

Right I'm off to do another Corner, God knows what that will turn out like.

Edit 1:

I see a few shouts for g4.

It figures but Black is not going to take that pawn.
Even I would not allow Black to do that.

Black hits the 7th with tempo. and gxf5 may help that wretched piece on c8.

On principle, and that is all you can do at the board if there
is no concrete analysis, better to move a bad placed piece than push a pawn.

But after Bd1-Bh5 perhaps Be8 THEN g4 must figure in future ideas.

However if some box states that g4 is the best move here,
I won't lose any sleep.

Here is the game.

Hum, 20.g4 seems until now to be the most interesting move, but after 20..... Rb2 it seems white hits a wall. Sacrificing the bishop with 21.gxf5 doesn't work as black can just ignore the bishop and retake the pawn after which white has again the problem of the bishop and the pawn, white does achieve a passed pawn but I'm not sure that would be enough. This position might be reached (white to move):


It seems too unclear, there must be something better along those lines, not?
So perhaps we should prepare g4 first, perhaps trying to avoid that Rb2?

Bd1 also seems fairly strong. I'm not sure what I would reply to that. Rb2 is tempting but that bishop coming in to the action does worry me. g6 is also tempting but the dark squares would be too weak. So perhaps this: 20.Bd1 Rb2 21.Bh5 Rfb7 22.Bg6, but then Nd7 after which black seems to hold, this is the position:


...which is not much better than the starting position it seems to me.

Finally, as a reply to GP, yes, it was a 1700 vs me (I was black) and the game ended 2 or 3 moves later, but I'm not sure I remember how, this is what I think was played:



Edit: oops, just missed your post, going to read it now

Ha!

We posted at the same time.

I beat you to it by a few seconds.

I see he did go for the 7th. Think he (you?) would have done that
after 1.Bd1 then the Bh5-e8 ideas come into effect.

Originally posted by greenpawn34
Ha!

We posted at the same time.

I beat you to it by a few seconds.

I see he did go for the 7th. Think he (you?) would have done that
after 1.Bd1 then the Bh5-e8 ideas come into effect.

Yes, there seems to be not much else for black (me) though...

Originally posted by greenpawn34
Hi O.

I'm going to give what I think is a plauasible continuation between
two under 1700 players.

If you want ultra perfect evaluation - run it through a box.
(but then it's not your game anymore is it?).

It has instructive moments.

Going to let Black run with his Queenside play as White attack does
not look anything till it's too late.
...[text shortened]... .Bxf8 Kxf8 8. Qxh7 Qd2 9. Ng6+ Kf7 10. Nh8+ Kf8 11. Qh4 Ke8 12. Ng6 Kd7 13.Qe7[/pgn]

If you read my posting you would have seen how black could avoid the dreadful things you let white do to him/her. Just by playing more sensible, and keeping his own aggressive options open. Or is that 1700+, lol?

Originally posted by greenpawn34
Hi O.

I'm going to give what I think is a plauasible continuation between
two under 1700 players.

If you want ultra perfect evaluation - run it through a box.
(but then it's not your game anymore is it?).

It has instructive moments.

Going to let Black run with his Queenside play as White attack does
not look anything till it's too late.
...[text shortened]... .Bxf8 Kxf8 8. Qxh7 Qd2 9. Ng6+ Kf7 10. Nh8+ Kf8 11. Qh4 Ke8 12. Ng6 Kd7 13.Qe7[/pgn]

yes, thanks for not shoving some perfect analysis down my throat, at least now I can reply, and have something to say 😀

There is one thing I notice in your line, its how those dark squares are used perfectly to remove defenders. Those exchanges don't seem very favourable for black either. So black has to avoid letting these pieces in so easily, not taking the a-pawn seems important (use that tempo wisely), instead Ne7 might be interesting, in this position again g4 might be an interesting option for white, what do you think?

Yes but my analyse is purely surface.

I just wanted to play around with Knight and Queen.

I think mephisto mentioned a Qc7 somewhere. That most likely takes
a lot of the fun out of it, (never looked), but you must be honest.

Did you think you would have considered that move?

Your Q-side play may suffer you have to poke that c3 pawn and use the b-file.
(that is how player's think).

You are learning a lot in this thread. Q & N mating patterns, defensive tech.

Originally posted by Mephisto2
If you read my posting you would have seen how black could avoid the dreadful things you let white do to him/her. Just by playing more sensible, and keeping his own aggressive options open. Or is that 1700+, lol?

Hi mephisto. I'm an under 1700 and I did not consider Qc7, but I'm also not sure I understand why that would be such a good move, please elaborate.