Originally posted by zucchiniBut isn't the object of your fears a certain kind of interpretation of religion, a rightwinged interpretation of religion ?
I agree with rwingett here. And I think there are many examples of religion in the wrong places. If you have difficulty seeing this point, please start replacing any word that refers to God or anything similar with "Zeus," and you will q ...[text shortened]... vernment (the public sector), and I have no problem with them.
What you are afraid of is a totalitarian interpretation of the Christian faith. A Christian fundamentalist inspired political doctrine, right ?
Originally posted by ivanhoeIt is more annoyance than fear, but I think there is great potential for religion to be abused in politics. Fortunately, the U.S. is becoming even more diverse.
But isn't the object of your fears a certain kind of interpretation of religion, a rightwinged interpretation of religion ?
What you are afraid of is a totalitarian interpretation of the Christian faith. A Christian fundamentalist inspired political doctrine, right ?
(I assume that by right-wing you mean fundamentalist? And I don't know what you mean by "totalitarian interpretation." )
I don't think any religiously inspired political doctrine is good. Sometimes it can lead to good policy, but I think strong debate leads to much better policies.
I am most concerned about prejudice and discrimination against people like me based solely on our lack of belief. I often meet people who seem to honestly believe that atheists are amoral people, based upon their beliefs that morals come only from God, etc. Perhaps fundamentalists might think lower of atheists more often, but I know very few fundamentalists, so I cannot say. I think that people's anti-atheist thinking is so strong that they do not see it. I often hear things from public officials such as "good, God-fearing people," suggesting that one implies the other. I think such attitudes are very divisive, harmful, and small minded.
Next, I find most of the religious rituals that are part of public life very odd. I think they help preserve a culture of keeping religious considerations in public, and I think these matters should be separated completely from public life. I do not think it is fair to coerce anyone to join in prayer or other religious acts, but this is what happens regularly. I was once sworn in for testimony before a court, and was asked to put my hand on a Bible and swear to tell the truth before God. I had to tell them that I could not, but that I promised to tell the truth. I find this just bizarre.
I think that atheists are one of the last groups in America that is broadly discriminated against, and that has very little public voice. Look at elected officials in America: there are people of most races, and most religions, and recently gays, but I know of know federal-level public officials who are openly atheist. I saw a poll recently that showed that about half of (American) voters would not vote for an atheist!
People who know me find that I share many values with most of the people in my community.
I tried to answer your question as best as I could, I hope it clarifies...
Something along the lines of this discussion: I can't even begin to count the times that I have been told by a christian upon learning that I don't believe in God that "you will, oh you will. It's inevitable" with a knowing look on their face saying they think I am lost and my life is found wanting because of it.
ncrosby🙂
To the topic of the thread about why religions can't just get along:
When I was a believer, one of my biggest frustrations with religion was this difference in interpretations/opinion between the different sects. I was nondenominational and frequented a variety of churches including Assembly of God, Church of God, Four Square Baptist, Church of Christ, etc etc etc. Going between one and another, I came to the conclusion that believing in God and everything that that entails took the backburner behind following the rules of the specific church I was going to.
At one I had to take off my jewelry, at another I was reprimanded for making the comment that I loved instruments played in church, etc.
I went to church camp that was Church of God of Assembly, who are pentacostal, and they pretty much forced me to try to speak in tongues (I was young) and made me feel that I was lacking that I couldn't.
I went to a Church of Christ college, who does communion- I refused to do it because I felt that if I did something because every one else was doing it rather than because I believed in the importance of it, it would be wrong. I was taken to a bible class for beginners because I had not been "properly" saved and needed to learn the true way to live.
Also at the Church of Christ college, I was having a bible study with a couple good friends- my best friend at the time answered my announcement that I was not Church of Christ and wouldn't become one, that I was going to hell. No matter that I believed in God, chose to live by Him and yada yada yada. The importance that was put on going to heaven was whether I was a member of the Church of Christ or not.
Very frustrating, but it among a million other things helped me the think about what it was I believed in and the validity of it, which I am extremely thankful for. 😀
ncrosby🙂
Well said indeed Mr. Martin.
The problem with religion is the meanig itself. The word religion is made of two latin words. Re meaning "go back" and ligio "to bind" religion means to bind back. You might say what does that mean? Well the whole point is about The Supreme One, God . Some believe in themselves(athiest), some believe in allah(muslims) some believe it's Jesus(some christians). Which ever one you think, religion in the true sense of the word is Not important. Its a relationship with God that is important. You see EVERY religion in the entire world teaches that you have to work you way to heaven. Do a little giving, do a little praying, do good works to people or stop doing this sin or that sin. Works. They teach do "good" works and stop the "bad" works(sinning). Works. People teach religion in there own way. We all know that none of us is perfect. We are all sinners, even me. So people teach that you have to "GO BACK" and "BIND" to God. They all teach different ways to go to God but they ALL teach WORKS. Please allow me to show you what the bible says WITHOUT my "intrerpetation". Yes we are all sinners(Romans3:23) and the 1 payment for our sin is death(Romans6:23). The bible also says that God loves us so, so much(Romans5:8; John3:16; John3:15)! The Holy God in Heaven says that there is only one way to Him, and you must go through Jesus Christ. Now here is what I want to show you friend. Romans 4:5 says you have to believe in Christ WITHOUT your WORKS. Ephesians 2:8,9 says its by your faith WITHOUT your WORKS. Titus 3:5 says its by faith in Jesus cause God's mercy WITHOUT our WORKS. Also Romans3:20,21,22,23,24,28; Romans 5:1;Galations 2;16; Acts13:38,39; John6:29; Philippians3:9. There are tons of bible verses that simply say its not by my works and its not by your works. Its by HIS work that He finished on the cross. Remember that there is only 1 payment for our sin, "death." And what did Jesus do on the cross...........He died. He took our sin.
Let me kindly ask you a question. Do you KNOW for sure that your going to heaven when you die? Well the bible says that you can KNOW.
I John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God that you may KNOW that you HAVE eternal life... Would you believe(trust) Jesus as your only way to heaven? God who cannot lie already said, "You can KNOW"
your friend,
Albert
Originally posted by PuppeteerDeja vu 🙂
Well said indeed Mr. Martin.
The problem with religion is the meanig itself. The word religion is made of two latin words. Re meaning "go back" and ligio "to bind" religion means to bind back. You might say what does that mean? Well the whole point is about The Supreme One, God . Some believe in themselves(athiest), some believe in allah(mu ...[text shortened]... your friend,
Albert
Feivel
Originally posted by PuppeteerNot to be rude to Puppeteer, but this is a perfect example of why different religions and atheists/religious can't get along. Here comes a guy who has no idea what you believe or how you believe what you believe, but no matter. He knows the TRUTH and he's gonna tell it to ya, and it's the ONLY TRUTH there is and that's that. All those other religions, teaching WORKS?!? No, don't you know, THEY'RE WRONG! THIS is the truth and the only truth.
Well said indeed Mr. Martin.
The problem with religion is the meanig itself. The word religion is made of two latin words. Re meaning "go back" and ligio "to bind" religion means to bind back. You might say what does that mean? Well the whole point is about The Supreme One, God . Some believe in themselves(athiest), some believe in allah(mu ...[text shortened]... your friend,
Albert
Sheesh.
ncrosby🙂
it is curious that some people were unreligous and 'discovered' religion - i seem to recall ivanhoe, pcaspian, huntingbear saying so, though there are no doubt more.
it is curious that some people were religous and 'undiscovered' religion - i seem to recall ncrosby and svw saying so, though there are no doubt more.
just as a change of pace, it might be interesting to hear why and how different individuals crossed the border.
personal stories seem to be so much more enlightening as opposed to debating the existence of something that either does or doesn't exist.
in friendship,
prad
Originally posted by pradtfThat's a good idea, Prad. As I have said before I grew up in a religious home, but I always had a very keen sense as a child about when things seemed "out of place." As I got older I struggled with the desparity between the words I heard in church or in religious circles and what I experienced in myself. For example, I might go to church and hear that "God is love" and the minister might have a scowl on his face and be yelling. To me, this seemed incongruent. As I have said before, just substitute the word "car" for Jesus and ask yourself if you would buy a car from this person. If not, why get your salvation from there. As I got older I entered therapy for various situations in my life and found this to be a place to 1) look at myself in an accountable relationship and 2) find some peace for myself. I'm not saying psychotherapy or counseling is a substitute for church, but it can be a spiritual experience. I also participate in a 12 step program as I find that to be a place where, as the book of Acts says, "we have all things in common."
it is curious that some people were unreligous and 'discovered' religion - i seem to recall ivanhoe, pcaspian, huntingbear saying so, though there are no doubt more.
it is curious that some people were religous and 'undiscovered' religion - i seem to recall ncrosby and svw saying so, though there are no doubt more.
just as a change of pace, it might ...[text shortened]... debating the existence of something that either does or doesn't exist.
in friendship,
prad
I have not discarded my religious heritage, but I would certainly say that it has evolved to something different for me. Today I am interested in hearing from people with universalist or Buddhist traditions, or even atheist views. For me the meat (forgive me for using that as I know you are a vegan) of spirituality is the relationship and not the doctrine.
Originally posted by martin williamsIt is a sensitive topic because the truth hurts, that you are a sinner and the only why to Heaven is though Jesus.
[b]Why is religion such a sensitive topic anyway?
I know there are some poeple who complain about God saving murders and rapists, but everyone is equally as sinful in the eyes of God.
Originally posted by RBHILLIf the truth hurts, then I can't wait to feel the pain
It is a sensitive topic because the truth hurts, that you are a sinner and the only why to Heaven is though Jesus.
I know there are some poeple who complain about God saving murders and rapists, but everyone is equally as sinful in the eyes of God.
when you put out the Week 4 Bible Study tomorrow morning.
I spent uncounted thousands of hours as a youth in a Protestant church which liked to call itself "a Bible-believing church." But as I grew up and learned more about the Bible, I realized that there was a good deal of deceit in their claim to be Bible-believing. They ignored reams of commandments that the Old Testament says God issued to humans. (Examples: our church did not have a stone altar that was precisely so many cubits high. At after-service congregational dinners that were sometimes given, they sometimes served the meat of unclean animals.) They justified this sweeping-under-the-rug with the idea that the First Coming of Jesus did away with the need for ritual law.
But they also effectively ignored parts of the New Testament as well. "Suffer not a witch to live" was spun as something more like, "Well, see, we should not encourage people to engage in witchcraft." And "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" became "I can do certain spiritual things, such as singing of God's glory." Nobody in the congregation could jump over a tall building, nor could they cause Bibles to supernaturally rain down on the jungles of New Guinea in just the right dialect of the jungle tribespeople living there.
The unfairness of the whole Salvation scheme started to really sink in during my mid teen years. Here is an example: The church takes up a special offering, to be given to missionary work in a South American rain forest. As the plate passes through Jerry's hands, he puts nothing in it. He has a twenty dollar bill in his wallet, but he is thinking to himself I am going to put that money toward a new bowling ball this week. My team in the bowling league is counting on me in the next tournament, and I know I can score higher with a ball that is superior in quality to the one that I am currently using. So pardon me, but I am not going to contribute to this particular offering.
So the money from the collection goes to a husband-and-wife missionary team on the ground in South America. They know of some small bands of people living deep in the forest along a muddy rutted jeep trail. They use the collection money to buy gasoline and other supplies to drive out on the trail and evangelize the natives. When their supplies are half used, they turn around and head back to their base camp. Had they had an additional twenty dollars worth of gasoline (the amount that Jerry could have put in the collection plate, but chose not to), they could have gone a bit deeper into the forest and met up with one more cluster of natives. But they did not do so. As a result, a tribal elder dies three weeks later without accepting Jesus. He would have accepted Jesus had the missionaries gotten to where he lived and spoken to him about the Bible. But since that event did not quite happen--due to a decision made over a bowling ball--the elder spends an eternity being tortured in Hell rather than being smothered with love in Heaven.
Fair or unfair? You decide if a world that works that way is one for which you can give your God praise. For my teen self, the answer was obvious.
Originally posted by Cribscome on cribs! give rbhill a chance - let's ask him to tell his story, which will hurt a lot less, i think, than the bible study.
If the truth hurts, then I can't wait to feel the pain
when you put out the Week 4 Bible Study tomorrow morning.
let's take the first step towards changing the incessant attack and counter-attack.
we've had 3 excellent insights already from ncrosby, kirksey and paul dirac.
let's hear some more in this thread of martin's.
at least that way we can start seeing the people behind the views and perhaps even realize that the 'religious fanatic' really isn't launching an inquisition and the 'infidelic heathen' really isn't god-forsaken.
in friendship,
prad
Originally posted by pradtfA very interesting idea Prad, thanks to those of you who share their stories.
... it might be interesting to hear why and how different individuals crossed the border.
Here is my story of "crossing the border" from Christian to atheist:
I was initially raised Catholic, briefly went to Catholic school. We didn't go to church but 6 times per year, and I actually received little Catholic religious training. My parents divorced, and my mother, looking for stability and liking its family focus, brought us to the Mormon church. I spent about 5-10 hours each week in church activities over six years, during which I received much religious training. Much of this was very valuable.
As I turned 16, I began to have profound questions about the church's teachings and religion in general. I saw hypocrisy in these teachings and in church leaders actions. An example of hypocrisy in teaching was that (at that time) Black men could not hold the priesthood. I could not accept this, so I came to the conclusion that the rules of the church were not divinely inspired. As an example of the hypocrisy of leaders, our Bishop (read pastor) owned a retail store which I thought carried out business in a dishonest way. So why did God select this man? There were many such examples.
I held the title of "priest" (common for 16-year olds), and was about to be selected as president of the priests group when I left the church. I instantly lost all of my church friends (adults included). This was a difficult time for me. As a result, I was largely left on my own to puzzle things through. I read, kept diaries, and continued to ask questions. I decided that I was learning more without the framework of church, and moved away to college.
I don't know when I became atheist, but I definitely was one by the time I left college. I have a very strong interest in learning about what we humans are and I like to read science, politics, and social aspects of religion. I definitely see humans as animals, and not as divine. We share a great deal with other creatures on this planet.
I have a very simple opinion regarding religion now: Religion is good to the extent that it does good. I judge people by what they do, and what they think, not by what religion they are.
I feel no need to believe in any God, nor do I see any value in it for me or my family.
I think morals are fluid, built mostly by man and culture, and sometimes by nature. I think it leads to trouble if you don't understand why you hold the values you do, and believing something is right just because someone else says so doesn't make sense to me. I think that we must constantly learn and strive to understand the world around us (as it is) in order to do better.
I have examined most of my beliefs and values, and am willing to re-examine them. They are always changing. I think this is a good thing.