touch move?

someone that i know at school tends to prefer castling by first moving the rook, then the king
what i'm wondering is in a relatively low level tournament, do you think anyone would call him out for touch move for technically letting go of his rook on f1 and won't let him castle, or do you think no one will really notice it?

I bet there will be some nit-picking nitwit who calls him upon it.

Just explain to him that it's incorrect/illegal and he should castle properly - it's no big deal to do things the right way and avoid any hassles.

Originally posted by banx99
someone that i know at school tends to prefer castling by first moving the rook, then the king
what i'm wondering is in a relatively low level tournament, do you think anyone would call him out for touch move for technically letting go of his rook on f1 and won't let him castle, or do you think no one will really notice it?

Yeah - I'd definitely advise your friend to try to do it the "right" way. There's always someone who calls people on things like this.

Originally posted by Erekose
Yeah - I'd definitely advise your friend to try to do it the "right" way. There's always someone who calls people on things like this.

No need to put right in "..."!

There is simply a right way (correct/legal according to the rules) and a wrong way (incorrect/illegal...) to castle - it's one of the most basic things we learn when we start playing chess isn't it? Am i missing something here?

Originally posted by banx99
someone that i know at school tends to prefer castling by first moving the rook, then the king
what i'm wondering is in a relatively low level tournament, do you think anyone would call him out for touch move for technically letting go of his rook on f1 and won't let him castle, or do you think no one will really notice it?

Regardless of whether you see enforcing touch move in this kind of circumstance as 'nit picking' or not ... your friend would certainly have no cause for complaint if anybody did so.

He's breaking the rules and so should not be surprised if somebody plays to the rules and forces him to leave his king on e1.

Originally posted by banx99
someone that i know at school tends to prefer castling by first moving the rook, then the king
what i'm wondering is in a relatively low level tournament, do you think anyone would call him out for touch move for technically letting go of his rook on f1 and won't let him castle, or do you think no one will really notice it?

I agree that touching the rook first isn't the right way to do it. I haven't had someone do this to me, and I'd probably not call him on it, but I probably would mention that he's supposed to touch the king first. And, yes, even in a low-level tournament, he might be called on it.

The OP is using an Australian flag, so I'm not sure if he's playing under FIDE rules or Australian rules.

Under FIDE rules, if someone touches the rook first, castling isn't allowed, and the violator could be forced to make a non-castling move with the rook, if his opponent is a stickler for details. (See FIDE Article 4.4.b)

Here in the USA, the USCF rules are not as clear, unfortunately. In the USCF Rules of Chess, 5th edition, Rule 10I2 states,

"10I2. Rook touched first. If a player intending to castle touches the rook first, there is no penalty except if castling is illegal, the player must move the rook if legal."

This rule brings up the question of what is meant by "intending to castle." Also, in a December 2005 TD Corner article (see link below), Tim Just gives his interpretation on this rule. Basically, he states that in practice, a TD will usually only give a warning on the first offense, and will usually apply a penalty on subsequent violations by that person in other games. I find this interpretation a little strange, since the rule specifically states that there is no penalty in this situation. My opinion is that if the TDs feel that penalties should apply (and I agree), then the rule should be changed to remove the ambiguity.

http://www.uschess.org/tds/tdcorner1205rs.pdf

Try to move the rook first at RHP and see what happens... 😕

Originally posted by banx99
someone that i know at school tends to prefer castling by first moving the rook, then the king

From the "FIDE Laws of Chess"
Article 4.3
... if the player having the move deliberately touches on the chessboard one or more of his own pieces, he must move the first piece touched that can be moved.
Article4.4
If a player deliberately touches a rook and then his king he is not allowed to castle on that side on that move, and the situation shall be governed by Article 4.3(a).

I think one should learn how to castle with one hand, utilizing their thumb and pinky to grab at the same time, and then have a fancy little twirl with the pieces. It'd be useful as a distraction tool. 🙂

I've been in a tournament where my opponent touched the rook first, castled, and then said "castle." Is this illegal to?

Yes. The rule is very simple. When castling, you move the king first. That is it.

He probably said it after he realized his mistake, more or less asking for your leniency.

Originally posted by MrHand
Yes. The rule is very simple. When castling, you move the king first. That is it.

He probably said it after he realized his mistake, more or less asking for your leniency.

Sorry, but I must say that you're wrong. If you're talking FIDE rules, the rule is simple. But if you're talking USCF rules (and you're showing a USA flag), the rule SHOULD be simple, but it's not. Please read my previous post on this issue for more information.

Originally posted by Mad Rook
Sorry, but I must say that you're wrong. If you're talking FIDE rules, the rule is simple. But if you're talking USCF rules (and you're showing a USA flag), the rule SHOULD be simple, but it's not. Please read my previous post on this issue for more information.

Ah, interesting! sorry, didn't see that post and, obviously, didn't know that. That is very odd. Leave it to the USCF I guess!!

Very weird about the TD's discretion to apply penalties!

For me, I think it is academic...I think that if I was playing anyone that touched his rook first, I would guess that he is a beginner & probably weak, so I wouldn't care. Even against a strong opponent that was crushing me, I don't think that I would care really.

But that is interesting!

Still goes back to the main point, why not simply do it the conventional way.

Originally posted by MrHand
Ah, interesting! sorry, didn't see that post and, obviously, didn't know that. That is very odd. Leave it to the USCF I guess!!

Very weird about the TD's discretion to apply penalties!

For me, I think it is academic...I think that if I was playing anyone that touched his rook first, I would guess that he is a beginner & probably weak, so I wouldn't c ...[text shortened]... teresting!

Still goes back to the main point, why not simply do it the conventional way.

The USCF rules are interesting in regards to the TD's discretionary powers. Sometimes he has no choice and must apply penalties or forfeit a player. But very often, he can choose whether to simply issue a warning, or to apply a penalty (and even the severity of the penalty). One thing I've learned from playing in tournaments is that one of the main responsibilites of the TD is to strive for fair decisions by using common sense when interpreting the rules. And sometimes that's not an easy task.