1. Standard memberSecondSon
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    11 Sep '19 14:48
    @fmf said
    You can attach whatever intensifier adjectives you want to the assertions you make, they are still your subjective opinions.
    But only in your opinion.

    For some reason it escapes your imagination that I might have certain knowledge that makes mine not an opinion, but instead a known truth.

    It is your language that's the "intensifier". You're grasping for some logic to refute the existence of "immutable truth" by making knowledge a subjective experience rendering all views as merely opinions.

    By doing so you paralyze your own argument with illogical, emotional and irrational claims of subjectivity.

    Immutable truths exist, and are understood through reason and objective logic. Your feelings are betraying you.
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    11 Sep '19 18:26
    @divegeester said
    Your error is that the immutable truth you mention, is not objective.
    Is that a fact or simply your subjective opinion?
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    11 Sep '19 18:30
    @fmf said
    If I were to assert that there are immutable truths regarding supernatural beings and divine law, it would be my subjective opinion. Just as it is when you make such assertions. The strength of your certainty does not generate "objectivity".
    That also applies to your certainty that there are no objective truths regarding spiritual matters. Would you admit that you could be wrong and that objective truths may well exist that you are not aware of? Or are you claiming absolute certainty about your precarious position?
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    11 Sep '19 18:36
    @divegeester said
    An example of an objective immutable truth would be that the sun is a star.

    An example of an objective mutable truth would be that the sun is hot (it will get cold eventually)

    An example of a subjective immutable truth is “I think therefore I am”

    An example of a subjective truth is to believe that God exists.

    Edit; to everyone else a persons subjective truth is just their opinion.
    But if God truly exists then His existence would be an objective truth that is true regardless of what anyone might think or believe about His existence. We all make assumptions that we cannot prove. That doesn’t mean that none of our assumptions can ever be true.
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    11 Sep '19 18:38
    @fmf said
    It's your prerogative to call your opinions whatever you want. Regarding the things we are talking about, they are not "objectively true". They are merely opinions that, together, amount to your "faith". Does not matter how certain or earnest you are.
    At what point is objective truth established (if ever) in your opinion?
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    11 Sep '19 18:411 edit
    @divegeester said
    The key words in your post, which you should reflect on, are:

    “possibility” and “may be”
    If you believe there is no possibility of objective truth regarding spiritual matters ever existing you are rather closed minded.
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    11 Sep '19 20:17
    @dj2becker said
    If you believe there is no possibility of objective truth regarding spiritual matters ever existing you are rather closed minded.
    Calling me “closed minded” doesn’t change the facts that spiritual matters are subjective and opinion based.
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    11 Sep '19 20:20
    @dj2becker said
    Is that a fact or simply your subjective opinion?
    It is my subjective opinion turned into objective argumentation by reason and logical process, and represented objectively in text written by me for you to read and process and decide if you agree whether it is objectively true that he is mistaken or..whether you are going to be dishonest about it.
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    11 Sep '19 20:20
    @dj2becker said
    But if God truly exists then His existence would be an objective truth that is true regardless of what anyone might think or believe about His existence. We all make assumptions that we cannot prove. That doesn’t mean that none of our assumptions can ever be true.
    The important work in your post is the second one “if”.
  10. Standard memberKellyJay
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    11 Sep '19 22:30
    @dj2becker said
    If you believe there is no possibility of objective truth regarding spiritual matters ever existing you are rather closed minded.
    If the only truth that someone recognizes are possibilities that start and end in the material world, they will never see the necessity for anything that transcends the material world no matter how necessary.
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    11 Sep '19 23:13
    @kellyjay said
    If the only truth that someone recognizes are possibilities that start and end in the material world, they will never see the necessity for anything that transcends the material world no matter how necessary.
    I read stuff like this in fortune cookies.
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    11 Sep '19 23:15
    @dj2becker said
    At what point is objective truth established (if ever) in your opinion?
    Regarding stuff like everlasting life, divine law and "sin", "angels" and "demons" and other supernatural beings, "heaven", eternal torture, visions, miracles and so forth? Never. It's all just stuff that people speculate about, develop subjective opinions about, and then they die.
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    11 Sep '19 23:19
    @kellyjay said
    If the only truth that someone recognizes are possibilities that start and end in the material world, they will never see the necessity for anything that transcends the material world no matter how necessary.
    It is your prerogative to declare your opinions about stuff "that transcends the material world" to be "true" for everyone. That's what religious faith and posturing is all about.
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    11 Sep '19 23:27
    @dj2becker said
    We all make assumptions that we cannot prove. That doesn’t mean that none of our assumptions can ever be true.
    We all make assumptions that we cannot prove.

    And such assumptions are therefore subjective.

    That doesn’t mean that none of our assumptions can ever be true.

    Feel free to declare your assumptions and opinions about supernatural things to be "objective truths". It will indicate to people how very, very certain you are that you're right.
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    12 Sep '19 03:262 edits
    @divegeester said
    Calling me “closed minded” doesn’t change the facts that spiritual matters are subjective and opinion based.
    Oh I see. It’s ok to call your opinions facts. Would you say spiritual matters are still opinion based and subjective even if they happen to be true?
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