1. Standard membercaissad4
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    14 Jun '19 15:02
    @sonship said
    Caissad4,

    Stephen was the first Christian martyr - stoned to death for ceasing to preach about Jesus.

    Stephen recounts in Acts 7 very clearly the history of Israel being led out of Egypt and into the wilderness and into Canaan. His audience, the exceedingly hostile scribes, Pharasees, and religious leaders don't bat an eye of objection to the basic outline. ...[text shortened]... ernistic Sadducees, the political activists Zealots ready for revolution, etc. Jesus Himself... etc.
    You are trying to say a fairy tale is historically accurate.
    No burning bush, Ten Commandments, plagues, sticks becoming snakes, sea being parted, water from a rock, manna from heaven and no "Let my people go !" .
    Israeli archeologists spent millions of shekels but were forced to conclude that there is no historical evidence for the existence of Moses.
    It is a myth, a story, a fable.
    It is not historical truth.
    You can lie all you want but you cannot change the truth.
    Therefore, Jesus guy could not have been some all-knowing divine being since he had no idea that it was a fable.
  2. R
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    14 Jun '19 21:05
    @caissad4

    You are trying to say a fairy tale is historically accurate.

    No I am not. I am showing independent multiple attestation to the Moses story.

    Stephen and those who stoned him to death were 2,000 years closer to the recorded event then you.
    We don't see either party bewildered at the relating of something that never happened.
    We see two parties at least vehemently seeking reasons to oppose each other. Yet they agree with the Exodus story.

    You cannot just sweep things like this under the rug.

    You are right about scant archaeological evidence.

    No burning bush, Ten Commandments, plagues, sticks becoming snakes, sea being parted, water from a rock, manna from heaven and no "Let my people go !" .

    You don't know that.
    You hope that.

    Moses is a plausible character.
    And the writing of Exodus has many times more borrowed Egyptian words in it then any other book of the Old Testament.
    It is noted that whoever wrote it had intimate knowledge of Egyptian life.
    And the number of Egyptian borrowed words is evidence of the writer being heavily influenced by Egyptian education and familiar with Egyptian ways.

    By the way, it is not unusual that a foreign captive would be raised in the household of Egyptian officials.
    They had this strategy. Young men of other races, conquered or subversive races, would be brought up educated to be Egyptian. Moses was probably just one of a number of non-Egyptian boy brought up in the Egyptian royal court.

    He was in fact SO Egyptianized that the Medianite women reported that an Egyptian came to help them when Moses the Hebrews assisted them in the incident with the well.

    My point is that though archaeological evidence is scant, the person of Moses is entirely plausible.


    Israeli archeologists spent millions of shekels but were forced to conclude that there is no historical evidence for the existence of Moses.


    I'll look into that what you say.


    It is a myth, a story, a fable.


    I will not jump to that conclusion though you do.

    I asked for a number of alternative theories from you IF the account is entirely fictional. You ignored proposing alternative explanations. I'm just suppose to shrug at that ?


    It is not historical truth.


    You don't know that.
    You hope that.


    You can lie all you want but you cannot change the truth.
    Therefore, Jesus guy could not have been some all-knowing divine being since he had no idea that it was a fable.


    Jesus spoke of Moses. There is nothing in His discussion which suggests He didn't believe the Old Testament.

    Exodus us treated as HISTORICAL throughout the whole Old Testament. The Bible is not a single source but multiple documents accumulated over time com-pended into a library. And Jesus authenticate the tradition. He used their authenticity as a guarantee of His own. The Law, the Prophets, He says spoke of Him. The Law has its source in Sinai. The following generations of prophets referred BACK to the Law time and time again in an unbroken chain.

    You have to come up with a conspiracy theory as to how the deception was so strong and kept alive down the centuries from the time of Egyptian sojourn to the days of Jesus.

    Have you done this?
  3. Standard membercaissad4
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    15 Jun '19 00:33
    @sonship said
    @caissad4

    You are trying to say a fairy tale is historically accurate.

    No I am not. I am showing independent multiple attestation to the Moses story.

    Stephen and those who stoned him to death were 2,000 years closer to the recorded event then you.
    We don't see either party bewildered at the relating of something that never happened.
    We see two ...[text shortened]... e down the centuries from the time of Egyptian sojourn to the days of Jesus.

    Have you done this?
    You are using propaganda to promote your fairy tale.
    Try researching what happened when Ben Gurion sent Israeli archeologists to attempt to verify the Israeli claim that "God gave them this land". They found no evidence at all.
  4. R
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    15 Jun '19 10:191 edit
    @caissad4

    You are using propaganda to promote your fairy tale.
    Try researching what happened when Ben Gurion sent Israeli archeologists to attempt to verify the Israeli claim that "God gave them this land". They found no evidence at all.


    Exodus doesn't read ANYTHING LIKE a fairy tale.

    Some propaganda is true,
    There is such a thing as propaganda about historically true events.

    As for "God gave them the land" we can see in the Old Testament that He also took them off the land when they were not one with Him.

    I realize the politically they cannot point to Exodus for everything involving international politics. But it is also no small matter that after a couple of thousand years they suddenly reformed as the nation of Israel again.

    Now, as I read the Bible, their possession of the land sometimes terminated - Assyria, Babylon, Medio Persia, Rome. Second Kings
    ends with God being so displeased with the nation that He said to have wiped them off the land like wiping a dish.

    Then in the recovery books - Ezra, Nehemiah, Haggai, Zechariah after discipline, He brought back a remnant to the land for a new start.

    You may be trying to change this to a political debate. I am focused though on the truthfulness of the exodus account. If it is not true, such a central theme of the whole Bible being absent, you practically have the whole Bible kind of collapse into nonsense.

    Now that may be fine with you. But I would find it harder to substitute your conspiracy theories in place of the things you call fairy tales.

    I don't get the impression that you READ it, though you watched some YouTube videos.
  5. R
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    15 Jun '19 10:271 edit
    Folks Caissad4 calls Exodus a fairy tale.

    Now I would suggest that you try to read through Moses's description of the things related to the tabernacle, its utensils, measurements, dimensions, orders of priestly responsibilities in roughly the last half of the book.

    It reads as if someone were meticulously describing the boot up process of a Microsoft Windows operating system. You have to be impressed with the mind that could master such details. The writer is obviously no dummy.

    You have to ask - "Does this sound like a person who is given to totally unrealistic fairy stories?"

    When I have mentioned this in the past some skeptics have suggested Lord of the Rings has detail too. Well, Moses is not copycating the style of Lord of the Rings. it is more likely that someone wanting to write a real good fantasy novel would take some elements of realistic style writing from the Bible's geography and genealogies to increase its sense of gravitas for entertainment value.
  6. Standard membercaissad4
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    15 Jun '19 15:10
    @sonship said
    Folks Caissad4 calls Exodus a fairy tale.

    Now I would suggest that you try to read through Moses's description of the things related to the tabernacle, its utensils, measurements, dimensions, orders of priestly responsibilities in roughly the last half of the book.

    It reads as if someone were meticulously describing the boot up process of a Microsoft Windows o ...[text shortened]... rom the Bible's geography and genealogies to increase its sense of gravitas for entertainment value.
    Exodus is a fairy tale.
    Since modern archaeology has shown there is no historical evidence for the Exodus and that information is available to anyone who actually seeks the truth in this matter, those who still believe it is a completely factual event are little more than self-deluded fools.
  7. R
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    15 Jun '19 15:402 edits
    @caissad4

    Still no alternative explanations to the independent multiple confirmations of its historicity.

    Still a much higher standard imposed upon the Bible than for other ancient events of less significance.

    Counter opinions on archaeological evidence.
    Some say Sauidi Arabia being a Moslem nation is not likely to be eager to allow what they suspect is biblical to be known to the non-Moslem world.

    Something to think on.
    Finding the Mountain of Moses: The Real Mount Sinai in Saudi Arabia .... maybe.
    YouTube
  8. Standard membercaissad4
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    15 Jun '19 16:14
    @sonship said
    @caissad4

    Still no alternative explanations to the independent multiple confirmations of its historicity.

    Still a much higher standard imposed upon the Bible than for other ancient events of less significance.

    Counter opinions on archaeological evidence.
    Some say Sauidi Arabia being a Moslem nation is not likely to be eager to allow what they suspect is biblical ...[text shortened]... e Real Mount Sinai in Saudi Arabia [/b] .... maybe.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjrxHqNy5CQ
    I watched that video and loved the part where they got to the real reason for making the video. They want donations.
    What's next ? The "real " location of Noahs' Ark.
    You are really grasping at straws on this.
  9. R
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    17 Jun '19 11:58
    Another interesting video On Exodus from an intellectual Jew (not a Christian)

    Dennis Prager - Rational Bible: Exodus (2018)

    YouTube

    Beware of people who watch three and a half minutes and come here mouthing off like they know the entire lecture.
  10. The Ghost Chamber
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    18 Jun '19 11:232 edits
    Exodus didn't happen. - Author John P. Lynch discusses problems with the Exodus story.

    YouTube
  11. R
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    18 Jun '19 19:551 edit
    @Ghost-of-a-Duke

    Tell me something. If the story of the Exodus with Moses is fiction then how come Moses is such an anti-hero?

    It seems the the embarrassing details of his commission to do the job would only be included if they were true.

    1.) Moses resists the divine calling about 13 times.
    2.) He is a fleeing felon trying to get away from Pharaoh. Not particularly hero like courage.
    3.) He has a speech impediment and excuses himself as not being ever an eloquent man.
    4.) His hesitations suggest more his cowardice than his courage.
    5.) If Moses is writing the story about himself why would he include such self increment anti-hero like characteristics?

    The typical fictional account of a national hero would probably exclude embarrassing counter-heroic character traits of the central hero figure.

    6.) You mean Moses was not allowed even HIMSELF to enter into the promised land by God after all this ?

    To me this is very unlikely typical religious hero building.
    Give me some alternative theories to the above points.
  12. The Ghost Chamber
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    18 Jun '19 20:13
    @sonship said
    @Ghost-of-a-Duke

    Tell me something. If the story of the Exodus with Moses is fiction then how come Moses is such an anti-hero?

    It seems the the embarrassing details of his commission to do the job would only be included if they were true.

    1.) Moses resists the divine calling about 13 times.
    2.) He is a fleeing felon trying to get away from Phar ...[text shortened]... y unlikely typical religious hero building.
    Give me some alternative theories to the above points.
    You are of course erroneously assuming Moses was the author of Exodus.

    Jewish and Christian tradition viewed Moses as the author of Exodus and the entire Torah, but by the end of the 19th century the increasing awareness of discrepancies, inconsistencies, repetitions and other features of the Pentateuch had led scholars to abandon this idea.[17] In approximate round dates, the process which produced Exodus and the Pentateuch probably began around 600 BCE when existing oral and written traditions were brought together to form books recognisable as those we know, reaching their final form as unchangeable sacred texts around 400 BCE.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Exodus
  13. R
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    21 Jun '19 17:361 edit
    @Ghost-of-a-Duke

    I didn't forget about this thread. It is a case of - when going off to read and study has preoccupied me more.
  14. The Ghost Chamber
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    21 Jun '19 18:51
    @sonship said
    @Ghost-of-a-Duke

    I didn't forget about this thread. It is a case of - when going off to read and study has preoccupied me more.
    Did your study include the above youtube clip?
  15. R
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    22 Jun '19 12:06
    @Ghost-of-a-Duke

    Did your study include the above youtube clip?


    Not yet.
    Destructive higher criticism has been around since the Documentary Hypothesis, probably before too.

    Some of this is very technical. I'm glad the thread was started. It has led to some interesting reading.
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