1. Standard membercaissad4
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    06 Jun '19 00:53
    I just finished watching a movie on You Tube.
    It is called Christian Dilemmas - The Secret History of the Bible .
    It covers a lot of Biblical history, focusing on many historical discrepancies. It is definitely not for the Bible literalists.
    I found it a bit too Christian-y for me.
    The main speaker still professes Christianity despite pointing out the plethora of historical discrepancies contained in the Bible.
    If your mind is not closed this is a good watch.
  2. R
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    06 Jun '19 11:263 edits
    @caissad4
    It is called Christian Dilemmas - The Secret History of the Bible .
    It covers a lot of Biblical history, focusing on many historical discrepancies. It is definitely not for the Bible literalists.


    What do you think is the top most devastating historical discrepancy that is the total destruction of my Christian faith ?

    Not the second or third most, I ask for. The most devastating historical dilemma to my Christian faith is what ?
  3. R
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    06 Jun '19 14:32
    @caissad4

    It covers a lot of Biblical history, focusing on many historical discrepancies. It is definitely not for the Bible literalists.


    Which one do you say is the real "show stopper?" Which of these alleged historical discrepancies should I as a lover of Jesus Christ, God's Son, be the most concerned with ?
  4. The Ghost Chamber
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    06 Jun '19 14:461 edit
    @sonship said
    @caissad4

    It covers a lot of Biblical history, focusing on many historical discrepancies. It is definitely not for the Bible literalists.


    Which one do you say is the real "show stopper?" Which of these alleged historical discrepancies should I as a lover of Jesus Christ, God's Son, be the most concerned with ?
    There was 'no' reason or necessity for Mary and Joseph to return to Bethelem. Clearly, the Gospel writers manipulated facts to ensure the fulfillment of the OT prophecy. This is turn discredits Jesus as the Messiah, which yes, should concern you.

    'There is no record of Caesar Augustus' decree that "all the world should be enrolled" (Lk. 2:1). The Romans kept extremely detailed records of such events. Not only is Luke's census not in these records, it goes against all that we know of Roman economic history. Roman documents show that taxation was done by the various governors at the provincial level. As we shall see later, the property tax was collected on site by travelling assessors, thus making unnecessary Joseph's journey away from what little property he must have owned.

    Luke has Joseph and Mary making a three-day journey away from their home in Nazareth to register in their alleged ancestral home Bethlehem. But an Egyptian papyrus recording a census in 104 C.E. explicitly states that "since registration by household is imminent, it is necessary to notify all who for any reason are absent from their districts to return to their own homes that they may carry out the ordinary business of registration...."6 Unlike Matthew, who does not mention a census nor Nazareth as Mary and Joseph's home, Luke describes Nazareth as "their own city" (Lk. 2:39). If the rules of this Egyptian census applied to Palestine, then Joseph and Mary should have stayed in Nazareth to be enrolled.'

    (God, Reason, and the Evangelicals)
  5. R
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    10 Jun '19 01:542 edits
    @Ghost-of-a-Duke

    One of the things you should be aware of is that modern skepticism holds the Bible to a much higher standard of historical and archaeological scrutiny. This is because of the content of the message. What the Bible is teaching engenders in critics of history a motive to apply a much higher degree of skepticism to the Bible's historical statements then in other ancient writings.

    The vested interest to discredit the Bible is greater because of its teaching. Not to say a genetic fallacy proves their complaints wrong. But the double standard of requiring verification is at work.

    I'll look at your problems with the birth story. But I really wanted to here more about the Exodus account being untrue per caissad4.
  6. R
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    10 Jun '19 02:001 edit
    @Ghost-of-a-Duke

    'There is no record of Caesar Augustus' decree that "all the world should be enrolled" (Lk. 2:1). The Romans kept extremely detailed records of such events. Not only is Luke's census not in these records, it goes against all that we know of Roman economic history. Roman documents show that taxation was done by the various governors at the provincial level. As we shall see later, the property tax was collected on site by travelling assessors, thus making unnecessary Joseph's journey away from what little property he must have owned.

    Luke has Joseph and Mary making a three-day journey away from their home in Nazareth to register in their alleged ancestral home Bethlehem. But an Egyptian papyrus recording a census in 104 C.E. explicitly states that "since registration by household is imminent, it is necessary to notify all who for any reason are absent from their districts to return to their own homes that they may carry out the ordinary business of registration...."6 Unlike Matthew, who does not mention a census nor Nazareth as Mary and Joseph's home, Luke describes Nazareth as "their own city" (Lk. 2:39). If the rules of this Egyptian census applied to Palestine, then Joseph and Mary should have stayed in Nazareth to be enrolled.'


    So you were reading along the Gospels. And when it said something like Jesus would save His people from their sins, you would believe it. However, you got hung up on problems of the history of Roman census taking ?

    Ie. "Yes I see that this person Jesus came to save sinners from their sins before God. BUT ... problems with Matthew's and Luke's understanding of Roman politics, society, and census taking, puts ALL of that in jeopardy."
  7. Standard membercaissad4
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    10 Jun '19 02:29
    @sonship said

    I'll look at your problems with the birth story. But I really wanted to here more about the Exodus account being untrue per caissad4.
    The Exodus story is regarded by Israeli archaeologists and rabbis as a story, not history. It is part of their Torah and they tried mightily to prove its' historicity but admitted after much searching it was not historical You would have to a be moron to think that approx. 3 million people wandered a small desert for 40 years and left no evidence to be found.
    Rather than playing the Doubting Thomas game you can verify all my claims very easily. I understanding you feel compelled to play the games suggested on Creationist websites to try to argue against things like Creationism, Exodus and Genesis. But you should agree it is dishonest and demeaning to you as a person and as a Christian.
    I am fairly certain you will NOT do any research on ANY matter which conflicts with your opinions. You would probably defend the Genesis account of the Earth as flat with a firmament and water above it. And of course there is the talking snake and the rib woman.
    Your only concern is defending your faith, the truth be damned.
  8. R
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    10 Jun '19 03:441 edit
    @caissad4
    The Exodus story is regarded by Israeli archaeologists and rabbis as a story, not history. It is part of their Torah and they tried mightily to prove its' historicity but admitted after much searching it was not historical You would have to a be moron to think that approx. 3 million people wandered a small desert for 40 years and left no evidence to be found.


    Now you have to be more honest and recognize that not all rabbis would agree that it never happened. And the tombs of Pharaohs in Egypt more often BOASTED of the accomplishments of their reigns. They would no readily leave hieroglyphics in their tombs of humiliating national defeats such as the Exodus of millions of slaves which made a chump out of all the Egyptian gods.

    That would be a humiliation you would least expect for them to preserve a record of.
    Pharaoh's officers warned the hardened Pharaoh that Moses and his God were the ruination of the Egyptian Empire.

    And Pharoah's servants said to him, How long shall this man be a snare to us? Let the men go that they may serve Jehovah their God. Do you not yet realize that Egypt is destroyed ? (Exodus 10:7)


    Egyptology informs us that the writings on the walls of Egyptian kings even made their defeats in battle appear as victories. They erased and defaced bad news for their national pride.
  9. R
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    10 Jun '19 03:462 edits

    Rather than playing the Doubting Thomas game you can verify all my claims very easily.


    I know there is not much archeological evidence left in the desert. There is some disputed evidence here and there.

    My interest right now is for me to examine how completely senseless the whole rest of the Bible would be if the Exodus account were not a historical fact. You do not have ONE book attesting to the Exodus. You have multiple independent sources speaking of the Exodus.

    You would have to be talking about a deception that influenced multiple Psalms, songs, and poetry latter attesting to the Exodus story. The effort to concoct a conspiracy theory of where then all these came from would be harder work then to just believe the Exodus account. I think.

    Now the Jews had a civil calendar and a sacred calendar. The sacred calendar marks from the beginning of the Exodus from Egypt. Now if it did not occur please tell us what ALTERNATIVE source you believe serves as the origin of the sacred calendar.

    Then Jehovah spoke to Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, saying,

    This month will be the beginning of months for you; it shall be the first of the months of the year to you." (Exodus 12:2)


    What is your alternative explanation for the creation of Jewish sacred calendar when they already had a civil calendar?


    I understanding you feel compelled to play the games suggested on Creationist websites to try to argue against things like Creationism, Exodus and Genesis. But you should agree it is dishonest and demeaning to you as a person and as a Christian.


    You can assume much. I just ask you now to give opinion on the origin of the calendar which begins with the Jewish Passover event which is firmly grounded in the Exodus account -

    Speak to all the assembly of Israel, saying, On the tenth of this month each man shall take a lamb according to his fathers' house, a lamb for a household. ... Your lamb shall be without blemish, a year-old male; you may take it from the sheep or from the goats. And you shall keep it until the fourteenth day of this month; then the whole congregation of the assembly of Israel shall kill it at twilight." (vs. 4,5,6)


    A few thousand years Jews have had this time marker, calendar, and sacred ritual. What are your alternative explanations since you doubt the Exodus is history?
  10. R
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    10 Jun '19 03:541 edit
    I understanding you feel compelled to play the games suggested on Creationist websites to try to argue against things like Creationism, Exodus and Genesis. But you should agree it is dishonest and demeaning to you as a person and as a Christian.


    You get to be cross examined now.

    The Levitical Priesthood is extremely established in Jewish ancient culture. They said the whole thing dates back to Aaron and his sons in the story of Exodus.

    Now, you believe the Exodus never happened. I agreee nothing in the desert or in Egyptian archeology aboslutely establishes its historicity. But I think your standard is much higher because of the overall message of the Bible which you don't feel comfortable with.

    I think events with as little of archaeological attestation which have no particular discomfort to you, you accept from history books with not much doubt.

    This Aaronic PRIESTHOOD tradition - If not stemming from the events of the Exodus as we are told, how did it get started?
  11. R
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    10 Jun '19 04:11
    Caissad4,

    Your conspiracy theory of the Exodus being mythology should account for subsequent rulers and kings much closer to the event, believing that it occured.

    Did David and Solomon believe Exodus was the nation's history ?
    They were closer to the events then your modern skeptical scholars.

    Did Ezra and Hezekiah believe the Exodus history?

    What about some of your really BAD kings of Israel.
    Did Jereboam take the Exodus history as authentic ? I think surely he did.
    He wanted to undo the united ordained to the nation from the events of them coming out of Egypt and conquering the land of Canaan and holding to the delivering Yahweh.

    Thoughout the rest of the Old Testament Yahweh God is known as faithful precisely because the Exodus event proved His faithfulness. The theme of the Exodus directing God being thus reliable appears in - Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Judges, First and Second Samuel, First and Second Kings, First and Second Chronicles, Nehemiah, Psalms, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Amos, and Micah.

    These writers are all less informed then yourself and your few skeptical modern researchers?

    You have to concoct a pretty elaborate conspiracy theory how all the subsequent referrals to the Exodus story continued to attest to an unbroken chain of regard for God being the faithful God of the Exodus account.
  12. Standard membercaissad4
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    10 Jun '19 04:26
    @sonship said
    Caissad4,

    Your conspiracy theory of the Exodus being mythology should account for subsequent rulers and kings much closer to the event, believing that it occured.

    Did David and Solomon believe Exodus was the nation's history ?
    They were closer to the events then your modern skeptical scholars.

    Did Ezra and [b]Hezekia ...[text shortened]... inued to attest to an unbroken chain of regard for God being the faithful God of the Exodus account.
    Rubbish, all dishonest rubbish.
  13. Standard membercaissad4
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    10 Jun '19 04:26
    @sonship said
    I understanding you feel compelled to play the games suggested on Creationist websites to try to argue against things like Creationism, Exodus and Genesis. But you should agree it is dishonest and demeaning to you as a person and as a Christian.


    You get to be cross examined now.

    The Levitical Priesthood is extremely established in Jewish ancient cultu ...[text shortened]... ion - If not stemming from the events of the Exodus as we are told, how did it get started?
    More dishonest rubbish.
  14. R
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    10 Jun '19 04:472 edits
    @caissad4
    More dishonest rubbish.


    Well, such dismissal may be comforting to you.

    In the meantime another scholar's view. [my bolding]

    In addition to the testimony in the Pentateuch (all five books placed the Hebrews in Egypt or refer back to the sojourn respectively), aspects and details of the exodus and wilderness stories are used in a multiplicity of ways in the books of the Joshua, Judges, 1-2 Samuel, 1-2 Kings, Psalms, and in the Prophets ... often simple, and passing allusions are given, indicating that the audience needed no further elaboration. With overwhelming evidence within the Bible regarding the Egyptian sojourn, exodus, and wilderness episodes, evidence coming from a variety of types of literature and used in a host of different ways, it is methodologically inadvisable, at best, to treat the Bible as a single witness to history, requiring corroboration before the Egypt-Sinai reports can be taken as authentic.


    Archeologist and Old Testament scholar James K. Hoffmeier
  15. Standard membercaissad4
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    10 Jun '19 04:53
    @sonship said
    @caissad4
    More dishonest rubbish.


    Well, such dismissal may be comforting to you.

    In the meantime another scholar's view. [my bolding]

    In addition to the testimony in the Pentateuch (all five books placed the Hebrews in Egypt or refer back to the sojourn respectively), aspects and details of the exodus and wilderness stories are used in a m ...[text shortened]... be taken as authentic. [/b]


    Archeologist and Old Testament scholar James K. Hoffmeier
    More dishonest rubbish.
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