1. Subscribermoonbus
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    14 Mar '19 02:351 edit
    @ghost-of-a-duke said
    “Is a brave man sir who refers the Ghost to a dictionary.”

    Quite so.

    “Sentience is the ability to 'perceive or feel things' which is sufficient to render sonship's computer mouse quip a nonsense.“

    ‘Sonship ... quip ... nonsense’ — is a pleonasm. ‘Sonship’ will do.


    “Would you not equate sentient 'perception' with my reference to 'awareness' of the divine?”

    That depends on what one takes the nature of the divine to be. If the divine is taken to be immanent, then there is a plausible case to make for its being perceptible to sentient beings, since immanent divinity would be within the universe.

    However, transcendent divinity would not be perceptible, since it does not appear within the universe. Transcendent divinity would be apprehensible only through reason (e.g., by inferring it to be the most likely cause of otherwise inexplicable effects, as the most plausible explanation for the origin of life, the universe, and everything), or through faith.
  2. Subscribermoonbus
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    14 Mar '19 02:422 edits
    @kellyjay said
    You believe we can reason our way to God?
    I believe it is through faith, but even that is a gift of God.

    Romans 12:3
    For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.

    Ephesians 2:7-9 English Standard Versio ...[text shortened]... this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
    What I believe is not up for discussion here. The thread is about a spiritual transition being undertaken by FMF. He said he thought he might be realizing he is a deist. I asked whether he was familiar with the related concept of fideism, just to help FMF possibly disambiguate where he stands along the broad spectrum of spiritualities.

    Actually, I had you in mind among the frequent posters who qualify as fideists. Thanks for confirming my hypothesis.
  3. Standard memberKellyJay
    Walk your Faith
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    14 Mar '19 02:53
    @moonbus said
    What I believe is not up for discussion here. The thread is about a spiritual transition being undertaken by FMF. He said he thought he might be realizing he is a deist. I asked whether he was familiar with the related concept of fideism, just to help FMF possibly disambiguate where he stands along the broad spectrum of spiritualities.

    Actually, I had you in mind among the frequent posters who qualify as fideists. Thanks for confirming my hypothesis.
    You know me, anything for you. 🙂
  4. SubscriberSuzianne
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    14 Mar '19 04:39
    @darfius said
    "Universe" is not a collective noun, as there is only one. Not everything within the universe is a universe of its own. You keep trying to be a smartass and forgetting the smart part.
    "Universe" IS a collective noun, as is "flock" and "population". The members do not have to be identical, nor does there have to be "more than one" of them.

    Is English your second language? It's like I'm talking to RJHinds all over again.
  5. R
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    14 Mar '19 06:26
    @moonbus

    ‘Sonship ... quip ... nonsense’ — is a pleonasm. ‘Sonship’ will do.


    So you have some good definitions - pleonasm, fideism.

    Right to the point though, do you know God?
    I know God.

    What about you?
  6. R
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    14 Mar '19 06:432 edits
    @moonbus

    However, transcendent divinity would not be perceptible, since it does not appear within the universe.


    God is perceptible.


    Transcendent divinity would be apprehensible only through reason (e.g., by inferring it to be the most likely cause of otherwise inexplicable effects, as the most plausible explanation for the origin of life, the universe, and everything), or through faith.


    "The Spirit Himself witnesses with our spirit that we are the children of God." (Rom. 8:16)


    Those are not just religious sounding words. They are true.

    If we receive the Holy Spirit in regeneration -
    The Spirit, Who is God Himself, witnesses WITH our human spirit that we have a life relationship with God.

    It is something like a radio antenna picking up the invisible radio waves. We have something in our human being as an "organ" which acts to substantiate God.

    And when our spirit touches the Holy Spirit Who is God, our human spirit witnesses so, and the Person of the Holy Spirit witnesses so. Together the Spirit witnesses WITH our spirit that we have touched a divine Father.

    The mind is needed to interpret what the human spirit and the Holy Spirit JOINTLY witnesses within our being.

    This requires forgiveness of sin to remove the insulation between a man and God. And it requires regeneration. That is the human spirit is brought out of its comatose and deadened state by the Spirit of God in an inward birth.

    "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    Do not marvel that I said to you, You must be born anew." (John 3:6,7)


    I have experienced this.

    1.) My spirit being born of God the Spirit.
    2.) God the Spirit jointly bearing witness with my human spirit that I am one of the children of my Divine Father.

    The word of God and the mind are needed to help interpret what is being experienced deep in the human spirit.
  7. The Ghost Chamber
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    14 Mar '19 08:52
    @sonship said
    @Ghost-of-a-Duke

    His join date was 22 Dec '04 so it is a logical assumption he is using the 'same' identity.

    This common sense was brought to you today by an atheist.


    Ah. Common sense.

    Well maybe I didn't examine any dates but coversationally simply ASKED the poster point blank.

    Not everyone jumps to examining history, joining date, etc.
    T ...[text shortened]... t and came to BE, then what is wrong with me using the word "created"?

    Common sense now, right ??
    His join date is like right there, under his name.

    😵
  8. The Ghost Chamber
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    14 Mar '19 08:591 edit
    @sonship said
    @Ghost-of-a-Duke

    Sorry sonship, did I miss your retraction for the erroneous statement that I believed the universe created itself out of nothing (despite telling you numerous times I believe in an eternal universe that had no creation event? ).


    I made no retraction. I invited you to correct me if I was incorrect.

    [quote]
    Swallow your pride, acknow ...[text shortened]... of the universe, back, and back, and back in an infinite regress ?

    Right? That's your position?
    My position is 'not' that the universe created itself out of nothing as you asserted.

    If you are unwilling to acknowledge that, I genuinely have no interest in conversing with you. Unless of course, we agree that I can misrepresent what you believe about the Trinity? Would that be an acceptable trade-off? That I repeatedly state here that you believe the Trinty comprises of 4 entities.

    Are you good with that?! Or do we just stop telling people what they believe?
  9. Subscribermoonbus
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    14 Mar '19 11:16
    @FMF

    There is another sterling example of a fideist posting to this thread. Can you guess who?

    Word to the wise: think twice before you leap, otherwise you might find yourself with strange bedfellows.
  10. The Ghost Chamber
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    14 Mar '19 11:23
    @moonbus said
    @FMF

    There is another sterling example of a fideist posting to this thread. Can you guess who?

    Word to the wise: think twice before you leap, otherwise you might find yourself with strange bedfellows.
    Is a 'fideist' a deist with a fide rating?
  11. Subscribermoonbus
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    14 Mar '19 11:49
    @ghost-of-a-duke said
    Is a 'fideist' a deist with a fide rating?
    'ELO, 'ELO, izzat you, Ghost?
  12. Subscribermoonbus
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    14 Mar '19 11:51
    @sonship said


    Right to the point though, do you know God?
    I know God.

    What about you?
    Right to the point, do you know how to spell my moniker?
  13. R
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    14 Mar '19 12:162 edits
    @Ghost-of-a-Duke

    My position is 'not' that the universe created itself out of nothing as you asserted.


    I acknowledged that it was not quite right to say that is what you said.

    I acknowledged it here:

    Now, since each universe in its various forms is created OUT of the previous form, I couldn't say you're saying the various forms of the universe were created out of NOTHING. That I might have to retract if I charged you with that.


    But if you want to leave it alone for awhile or just not talk, Okay.

    I say how about we concentrate on getting to the truth rather than winning arguments?


    If you are unwilling to acknowledge that, I genuinely have no interest in conversing with you.


    Fine. But above I corrected a notion -

    Now, since each universe in its various forms is created OUT of the previous form, I couldn't say you're saying the various forms of the universe were created out of NOTHING. That I might have to retract if I charged you with that.



    Unless of course, we agree that I can misrepresent what you believe about the Trinity? Would that be an acceptable trade-off? That I repeatedly state here that you believe the Trinity comprises of 4 entities.


    In a sense ... you would be correct. In eternity future the Triune God is thoroughly mingled with the corporate entity of the city of the New Jerusalem. This will be a fourth and three mingled together - in eternity future.


    Are you good with that?! Or do we just stop telling people what they believe?


    Lest you forget, I self corrected and said perhaps I should retract that you said the universe was created out of nothing.

    Now, since each universe in its various forms is created OUT of the previous form, I couldn't say you're saying the various forms of the universe were created out of NOTHING. That I might have to retract if I charged you with that.


    I retract it. I think I said I think you were saying that and invited you to correct me if I was wrong. I think I was wrong.

    The words " I couldn't say you're saying the various forms of the universe were created out of NOTHING " mean -

    " I couldn't say you're saying the various forms of the universe were created out of NOTHING. "
  14. The Ghost Chamber
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    14 Mar '19 14:56
    @sonship said
    @Ghost-of-a-Duke

    My position is 'not' that the universe created itself out of nothing as you asserted.


    I acknowledged that it was not quite right to say that is what you said.

    I acknowledged it here:

    [quote] Now, since each universe in its various forms is created OUT of the previous form, I couldn't say you're saying the various forms of the uni ...[text shortened]... I couldn't say you're saying the various forms of the universe were created out of NOTHING. " [/b]
    Actually, you said upon closer inspection I would find that 'was' my proposal. (Which was incorrect). - Anyway, happy to accept your retraction.

    There is no initial creation event in my proposal, only an endless stream of reconfigurations. (Not to be confused with an endless stream of creation events). Think of it as a deck of cards where the pack is routinely and eternally shuffled and new cards dealt. It could not be claimed that new cards had been created from the previous cards. (As the deck remained the same).
  15. Subscribersonhouse
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    14 Mar '19 16:57
    @suzianne said
    "Universe" IS a collective noun, as is "flock" and "population". The members do not have to be identical, nor does there have to be "more than one" of them.

    Is English your second language? It's like I'm talking to RJHinds all over again.
    OH NO, Not HINDS😉
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