Good men or God-men

God’s intention is not to have a universe filled with neat, clean, righteous, sinless people. As we have seen, God’s purpose is to sow Himself into His chosen people, making them His children. Once we have become God’s children through regeneration, having God’s life as our seed and content, we need to grow with and into God and be fully transformed by being permeated with all His divine elements. God’s intention is not to gain a group of pure, righteous people; it is to gain a people who have been saturated with Him and built up in Him.

Witness Lee

https://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?cid=1F09

People's regular concept is that God wants people to be good. But this can be very misleading. God created man to be united with Himself, to be God mingled, God saturated, God permeated, soaked and interwoven thoroughly so as to become God-people.

Did you notice that there were two trees in the garden of Eden?

The tree of life

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil

Notice it was not good verses evil rather it was divine life verses the knowledge of good AND evil. Why was it both the knowledge of good and evil on the forbidden tree ?

I think many read this and in their minds get it muddle. Though they read the words, they think that the basic dichotomy in the universe is good verses evil. This is only true in a sense.

The basic dichotomy is God Himself as eternal life verses an independent knowledge of both evil and good.

Satan came in to frustrate God’s work mainly through sin, the world, and the self. Thus, if we are to grow in God’s life, we must hate sin, forsake the world, and deny the self. The object of dealing with sin is not merely to deal with the sin itself, but to eliminate the satanic frustration to the growth in life. Having our sins forgiven is a minor thing; being delivered from the sinful frustration so that we may grow in God’s life is the major thing. If you have committed a sin but repent and desire to go on with the Lord, God will surely forgive your sin because of Christ’s redemption. Do not worry about it. God’s intention is not simply to forgive your sins but to bring you onward that you may grow in His life. We all are human and easily fall into sin. But as long as we desire to grow in life, God will spontaneously take care of our sins and cleanse us with the blood of Jesus. However, if we are not willing to grow and yet ask God to forgive our sins, He will be faithful to do it, but we shall not be in the fulfillment of God’s purpose. Simply having our sins forgiven on the negative side does not fulfill God’s purpose. We also need to grow and enter into the Sabbath rest.

Life Study of Hebrews by Witness Lee

https://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?cid=1F09

'And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.' (John 8:11).


How dangerously complacent then are these words from Lee?

'If you have committed a sin but repent and desire to go on with the Lord, God will surely forgive your sin because of Christ’s redemption. Do not worry about it...'

@sonship said
God’s intention is not to have a universe filled with neat, clean, righteous, sinless people. As we have seen, God’s purpose is to sow Himself into His chosen people, making them His children. Once we have become God’s children through regeneration, having God’s life as our seed and content, we need to grow with and into God and be fully transformed by being permeated with al ...[text shortened]... ed with Him and built up in Him.

Witness Lee

https://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?cid=1F09

Here's a thought. If man was created in God's image, maybe God is projecting because man's sinfulness reveals things about God that make God uncomfortable?

@BigDoggProblem

Here's a thought. If man was created in God's image, maybe God is projecting because man's sinfulness reveals things about God that make God uncomfortable?

By what more perfect morality would there be above God to cause Him to feel this conviction ?

If it exists with you and I, how could He bestow something in us that He had not in Himself to give? How could the effect be greater than the cause?

So you postulate a higher perfection of morality transcending both God and His creatures - human beings?

Who would that be?

@Ghost-of-a-Duke
My bolding:

'And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.' (John 8:11).

How dangerously complacent then are these words from Lee?

'If you have committed a sin but repent and desire to go on with the Lord, God will surely forgive your sin because of Christ’s redemption. Do not worry about it...'

I am not sure what you are trying to say.
You have a peculiar tendency to want to pin some wrongdoing on Witness Lee.

Your "don't worry about it ..." is left hanging seemingly to achieve the effect you want. That effect, I believe, is to show Witness Lee as sloppily concerning sinning. "ie. don't worry ..."

What he said not to worry about is whether you will be forgiven for your sin. It is not as you dishonestly wish to portray that he is saying don't worry about your sinning.

People, before Lee wrote - " Do not worry about it " he wrote above that - "we must hate sin, ".

People, before Lee wrote - "Do not worry about it" he wrote above - Thus, if we are to grow in God’s life, we must hate sin, forsake the world, and deny the self.

Ghost has learned well from his sources how to isolate words to achieve a slander against a man teaching Christian living honestly.

Lee wrote that to be forgiven was secondary to the more important matter of us GROWING in the divine life that God imparts to the forgiven.

Having our sins forgiven is a minor thing; being delivered from the sinful frustration so that we may grow in God’s life is the major thing.

Ghost thinks he is quite clever to cut off words and present only those which give the impression of Lee's lenience on sinning, permissiveness to continue without worrying, and is (and this I hardly understood) "complecent" in indorsing the wrong doing of Jesus Christ. That is if that is what he means that Lee's sentence is complecent in Jesus' error in forgiving the woman in John 8.

This is the kind of foolishness you may get when someone is simply too eager to hunt for wrongdoing because he heard some gossip or accusations.

Now the entire paragraph of Lee, I conclude here:

[my bolding and spacing for clarity]

Satan came in to frustrate God’s work mainly through sin, the world, and the self. Thus, if we are to grow in God’s life, we must hate sin, forsake the world, and deny the self. The object of dealing with sin is not merely to deal with the sin itself, but to eliminate the satanic frustration to the growth in life. Having our sins forgiven is a minor thing; being delivered from the sinful frustration so that we may grow in God’s life is the major thing.

If you have committed a sin but repent and desire to go on with the Lord, God will surely forgive your sin because of Christ’s redemption. Do not worry about it. God’s intention is not simply to forgive your sins but to bring you onward that you may grow in His life.

We all are human and easily fall into sin. But as long as we desire to grow in life, God will spontaneously take care of our sins and cleanse us with the blood of Jesus. However, if we are not willing to grow and yet ask God to forgive our sins, He will be faithful to do it, but we shall not be in the fulfillment of God’s purpose. Simply having our sins forgiven on the negative side does not fulfill God’s purpose. We also need to grow and enter into the Sabbath rest.

@sonship

You started the thread with these words from Lee, 'God’s intention is not to have a universe filled with neat, clean, righteous, sinless people...' - Despite John 8:11 instructing us to live a life void of sin. Why would such an instruction be given by Jesus if His intention was not to have a world filled with sinless people?

Just who's words exactly are you following here, Lee or Jesus?

Choose man!

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

You started the thread with these words from Lee, 'God’s intention is not to have a universe filled with neat, clean, righteous, sinless people...' - Despite John 8:11 instructing us to live a life void of sin. Why would such an instruction be given by Jesus if His intention was not to have a world filled with sinless people?

Just who's words exactly are you following here, Lee or Jesus?

Choose man!

Your abbreviated cut is misrepresentative of how I DID start the thread. I started the thread with the REST OF THE PARAGRAPH.

The remainder which you excluded in your myopic, bias, accusatory zeal, is spaced and bolded below.

God’s intention is not to have a universe filled with neat, clean, righteous, sinless people.

As we have seen, God’s purpose is to sow Himself into His chosen people, making them His children. Once we have become God’s children through regeneration, having God’s life as our seed and content, we need to grow with and into God and be fully transformed by being permeated with all His divine elements.

God’s intention is not to gain a group of pure, righteous people; it is to gain a people who have been saturated with Him and built up in Him.

@sonship said
@Ghost-of-a-Duke

You started the thread with these words from Lee, 'God’s intention is not to have a universe filled with neat, clean, righteous, sinless people...' - Despite John 8:11 instructing us to live a life void of sin. Why would such an instruction be given by Jesus if His intention was not to have a world filled with sinless people?

Just who's words e ...[text shortened]... ple; it is to gain a people who have been saturated with Him and built up in Him.

This last sentence is nonsensical:

'God’s intention is not to gain a group of pure, righteous people; it is to gain a people who have been saturated with Him and built up in Him.'


The reason it is nonsensical? God (apparently) is a perfect, pure, righteous and sinless being. It 'IS' therefore his intention to gain a 'group of pure, righteous people' if he wants them to be like Him and saturated by his perfect qualities.

Lee by all accounts thinks it is possible to be saturated by God and be built up in Him while 'not' being pure and righteous. (And indeed not to be concerned if one isn't pure and righteous).

@sonship said
God’s intention is not to have a universe filled with neat, clean, righteous, sinless people. As we have seen, God’s purpose is to sow Himself into His chosen people, making them His children. Once we have become God’s children through regeneration, having God’s life as our seed and content, we need to grow with and into God and be fully transformed by being permeated with al ...[text shortened]... ed with Him and built up in Him.

Witness Lee

https://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?cid=1F09

All 'good men' will be in the Kingdom of God.
Many God-men will be cast out.

Who are the good men?
The Good Samaritan types
The peace makers
The meek and humble
Those who feed the poor and needy
Those who live righteously
The pure in heart
These will enter the Kingdom of God

Who are the God-men? [Professed men of God, the faithful who proclaim they know God.]
The preachers of mouth worship
The greedy pastors who live in riches and materialism
The lying pastors who pretend to cast out devils and heal
The false prophet bible scholars who make false predictions
The church leaders who sexually abuse their congregation.
These will be destroyed in the lake of fire.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
This last sentence is nonsensical:

'God’s intention is not to gain a group of pure, righteous people; it is to gain a people who have been saturated with Him and built up in Him.'


The reason it is nonsensical? God (apparently) is a perfect, pure, righteous and sinless being. It 'IS' therefore his intention to gain a 'group of pure, righteous people' if he wan ...[text shortened]... le 'not' being pure and righteous. (And indeed not to be concerned if one isn't pure and righteous).

Exactly. The post is foolishness. It was written by a man devoid of logic and believed by a man with even less brain cells.

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

First of all, though I quoted Witness Lee nothing else in this thread by me will be about Witness Lee. This a matter of what the Bible reveals.

So from here on out, I will address the issue in reference to the Bible's revelation.

This disputed sentence:

'God’s intention is not to gain a group of pure, righteous people; it is to gain a people who have been saturated with Him and built up in Him.'

Ghost dismisses this as nonsense below.

The reason it is nonsensical? God (apparently) is a perfect, pure, righteous and sinless being. It 'IS' therefore his intention to gain a 'group of pure, righteous people' if he wants them to be like Him and saturated by his perfect qualities.

That is a better understanding. I think this could have been grasped by Ghost from the first. God does not MERELY want good people. He has myriads of good angels. He even has good angels that live forever.

So there must be something else in His intention to create man. What need is there for more good beings?

Had the sentence said

'God’s intention is not [MERELY] to gain a group of pure, righteous people; it is to gain a people who have been saturated with Him and built up in Him.'

There might be less ground for misunderstanding. However, I think those who misunderstand it were probably hunting for reason to do so.

The natural thought in human beings to be good according to the knowledge of good and evil independently from God as their source is tremendously strong in every culture and practically every philosophy and religion.

Paul said something similar in a hyperbolic way. He said he did not want to have his own righteousness.

" ... not having my own righteousness which is out of the law ..."

What nonsense when isolated from his other words. Why Paul seems not to care about having righteousness or being righteous.

Then we examine more of the surrounding words.

"And be found in Him, not having my own righteousness which is out of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is out of God and based on faith." (Phil. 3:9)

Paul does care about having righteousness. But it stems from him being joined to and immersed in the living Person of Christ. And that way the righteousness is out from God living in him. He exercises faith that all that God wants him to be will flow into him and be expressed from him through union with God and Christ.

@sonship said
@Ghost-of-a-Duke

First of all, though I quoted Witness Lee nothing else in this thread by me will be about Witness Lee. This a matter of what the Bible reveals. So from here on out, I will address the issue in reference to the Bible's revelation.

Good, good. Let us both push Lee to the sideline and focus on scripture instead.

Progress.