Extraordinary Claims Require Extraordinary Proof

It's clear that some here do not believe in the God that the bible speaks of for their own reasons but it's actually sad to me that they don't because believing in a creator fills in so many voids and questions that we have and can't answer . As humans it seems to be that most of us in our hearts want to believe and understand in something along the lines of how did we come about as our start as life here on earth.
It seems that almost monthly some new idea comes up to explain all those answers from experts on how it all came about.
Other then ALL the things we see here on earth and what we can see out in the universe which clearly shows a very intelligent being had to create those things, all these things show that God really does exist.
Some here want more proof. Would you believe if it took seeing God with your own eyes? Well you can't and never will. The bible says God's actual presence if we were to see him, it would kill us. So don't think seeing him will ever happen.
So this is where faith comes in and understanding that all we see around us is proof he is real.
If man were to ever make it to other planets by space travel and it would be quite clearly that if they discovered things that were built or manufactured, etc, that would be a pretty clear sign there was life their. I seriously doubt they would conclude that these things just evolved. The same reasoning with all we see here on earth and in space should make one seriously consider that some higher being, God, made them, instead of taking the easy path and just saying "he doesn't exist, so that means I don't have to answer to some being up in space. I can do my own thing"

@galveston75 said
It's clear that some here do not believe in the God that the bible speaks of for their own reasons but it's actually sad to me that they don't because believing in a creator fills in so many voids and questions that we have and can't answer . As humans it seems to be that most of us in our hearts want to believe and understand in something along the lines of how did we co ...[text shortened]... oesn't exist, so that means I don't have to answer to some being up in space. I can do my own thing"

Atheists are created by false religion. True religion converts the doubting atheist.

Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. (Matthew 5:16 KJV)

Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
(James 1:27 KJV)

Paul and the Apostles were able to travel through the Gentiles nations around and convert many who never heard of God. Why did they succeed? They had the power of God, they practiced the true doctrine of Christ, charity, brotherly love and good works. They did miracles. They succeeded and they converted many.

Modern Christianity is rife with
- false prophecies
- all manner of sin and evil
- greed and selfishness
- materialistic pastors and clergy
- fake claims of having the Holy Spirit.

In fact the atheists of today are often more charitable and giving, less materialistic and greedy than the Christians.

Some of you apparently do not understand the post.
I made NO extraordinary claim that there is no Christian god or any other god.
I only want to see the extraordinary proof you should have to make such a claim that there is a Christian god. Or any other god for that matter.
After all, such an important and extraordinary decision as many of you have made should have extraordinary proof.

@caissad4 said
Some of you apparently do not understand the post.
I made NO extraordinary claim that there is no Christian god or any other god.
I only want to see the extraordinary proof you should have to make such a claim that there is a Christian god. Or any other god for that matter.
After all, such an important and extraordinary decision as many of you have made should have extraordinary proof.

Why? Scriptural proofs are only given to those that seek God with all their heart. You have reality with no internal reason to be here, the governing laws that can not explain where everything came from, yet governs it all with such precise precision life can exist. You credit all of that to dumb luck?

@caissad4 said
Some of you apparently do not understand the post.
I made NO extraordinary claim that there is no Christian god or any other god.
I only want to see the extraordinary proof you should have to make such a claim that there is a Christian god. Or any other god for that matter.
After all, such an important and extraordinary decision as many of you have made should have extraordinary proof.

You are too caught up in your ideology to see your own hypocrisy.

@caissad4 said
Some of you apparently do not understand the post.
I made NO extraordinary claim that there is no Christian god or any other god.
I only want to see the extraordinary proof you should have to make such a claim that there is a Christian god. Or any other god for that matter.
After all, such an important and extraordinary decision as many of you have made should have extraordinary proof.

So what would you consider or imagine would qualify as the extraordinary proof that you would like to see or hear that would satisfy your request?

@galveston75 said
So what would you consider or imagine would qualify as the extraordinary proof that you would like to see or hear that would satisfy your request?

What prevents you and others from being reasonable and admitting that it's purely a matter of faith? Is it pride?

@thinkofone said
What prevents you and others from being reasonable and admitting that it's purely a matter of faith? Is it pride?

Purely faith, you think truth doesn’t matter?

@kellyjay said
Purely faith, you think truth doesn’t matter?

How did you manage to get that out of what I posted?

@suzianne said
But even with proof in hand of how the universe came to be, this would not actually invalidate God.

Everyone involved in the debate would benefit from taking a step back and realizing that proof cannot be made either way. The exercise IS beneficial in understanding the viewpoint of the other side. We can realize that we are all human and that this does not somehow grant ...[text shortened]... g proof for one side will end up just as disappointed as those looking for proof for the other side.

I agree, a completely materialistic explanation of how the universe came to be does not exclude God as a theological posit, but it does render God superfluous as a factual explanation.

Back on track, extraordinary proof (which is not exactly unassailable proof): suppose someone told you he had been abducted by aliens, transported by some means incomprehensible to him to a spacecraft or another planet, subjected to a 'medical' examination, then returned to Earth. An extraordinary claim if ever there was one, yet people have made such claims. Would you believe that, just on someone's say-so? I think you wouldn't; any sane person would expect to see some tangible evidence. An alien artefact, for example, some piece of gadgetry purloined from the alien ship/planet which could not possibly be of Earthly origin. And you would want to know something of the character of the person making the claims: is he credible and reliable about other things (not like, er Donald Trump), is he prone to flights of fancy and wild conspiracy theories (er ... whodey), does he have a history of mental illness involving delusions, or does he belong to a cult with a well-known political agenda (e.g., Scientology) etc. etc.

Now apply this same reasoning to the claim that a man was born of a virgin and was bodily resurrected. Do you expect me to believe that just based on someone's say-so? Someone who cannot now be interviewed because he's not here. The people who wrote the NT are not certifiable, we cannot now verify that they were really eye-witnesses to the alleged events they recounted, or that they accurately recorded what they saw (if they were really there). Some of the incidents recorded in the NT were clearly not witnessed by the people who wrote about them. I give you one example: who records the conversation between Jesus and Pilate ("What is truth" )? Not one of his disciples dared to go with him to be interrogated because they were terrified of being tortured and executed. One of them even denied knowing him, so as not to be implicated by association. The Romans certainly had no reason to record that conversation; it was a trivial case to them. The conclusion is obvious: that conversation is a fabrication, for dramatic effect. Further examples of faked eye-witness accounts in the NT could be provided.

Furthermore, there is no tangible evidence (because, get this, the evidence allegedly ascended unto heaven). This is even less credible than that someone got abducted by aliens (we know that there are exo-planets circling other stars, we know that organic molecules exist on comets; put 2 and 2 together, aliens are at least possible). Even-steven this is not; this is on par with Joseph Smith's claim that the angel Moroni took the golden tablets back to heaven. An extraordinary claim it is, but an extraordinary proof it is not -- no sane and fully rational person would believe that those golden tablets ever existed at all, much less that their not being here now is 'explained' by an angel's having taken them back to heaven. No one would have believed it without at least some corroboration; that is why Smith went to the trouble of trying to get some elders to sign an affidavit that they had handled some heavy metal plates in a bag (one of them later recanted). Thing is, we cannot now verify the credibility of the people who allegedly saw the risen Jesus, and anyway, not one of the disciples was present when Jesus was allegedly conceived immaculately. Extraordinary claims yes, extraordinary proofs these are not.

Same with the disappearing body of Jesus; that's not proof of resurrection, just that we haven't found the family tomb yet. Although there was a book published claiming that the family tomb had been found (Christians of course dispute it). Wouldn't it be interesting if a skeleton were found which bore the marks of crucifixion and a diary were found clenched in its fingers claiming to be the autobiography of a certain Jeshua who preached 'Love God, and love thy neighbour as thyself.' Now that would be tangible evidence ! though not of resurrection.

I don't demand an unassailable proof, but I do demand something better than someone's say-so, 2,000 years ago, when people believed all manner of superstitious rot. It's a lot easier to believe in a virgin both when people don't have the foggiest ideas about sperm and ova and chromosomes because the microscope won't be invented for another millennium and a half. Genetically, a man born of a virgin is either a clone (therefore female) or not viable.

@suzianne said
But even with proof in hand of how the universe came to be, this would not actually invalidate God.

Everyone involved in the debate would benefit from taking a step back and realizing that proof cannot be made either way. The exercise IS beneficial in understanding the viewpoint of the other side. We can realize that we are all human and that this does not somehow grant ...[text shortened]... g proof for one side will end up just as disappointed as those looking for proof for the other side.

Good post, (to be expected from you, of course) which I note nobody else has replied to. Regarding your first sentence, if scientific proof were ever found as to how it all started then it would at least invalidate the idea of 'god the creator', but since this is unlikely to happen it's a moot point anyway.

I once read an analogy whereby science and religion are climbing different sides of the same mountain in search of the ultimate answer to life, the universe and everything, and if they ever met at the top neither would be able to prove their point.

And if I may for a moment digress from your post;

Certain things can be proved by observation and study, such as the fact that the oldest and first life forms were primitive, becoming ever more complex until we have us, the first species to name the stars, and who know the difference between Thursday and Friday, and who created fish and chips. To deny the process of evolution and therefore science becomes religious dogma, and becomes frankly silly. Even hard - wired Christians accept this, I think, and have done so since Charlie Darwin published his findings and conclusions. It is absolutely possible that everything is one big, happy accident, which is the purely scientific perspective, and for an atheist such as myself the only one which makes any sense. To have faith in a higher being requires a departure from the neutral position, which I have never been able to do since I started thinking for myself, but that's just me.

Anyway, as I think we can conclude, and as indeed you have concluded, nobody has all the answers, we only have science or faith; science says that it all must have all started somewhere, somehow, we just haven't worked it out yet, faith says that a god created it, and never the twain shall meet, but I'd still get the beers in.

@moonbus said
I agree, a completely materialistic explanation of how the universe came to be does not exclude God as a theological posit, but it does render God superfluous as a factual explanation.

Back on track, extraordinary proof (which is not exactly unassailable proof): suppose someone told you he had been abducted by aliens, transported by some means incomprehensible to him to a ...[text shortened]... and a half. Genetically, a man born of a virgin is either a clone (therefore female) or not viable.

I understand your view point. In a court of law proof is very, very important for the legal process to work in an honest fashion.
But with the bible you are missing a couple very, very important points. I realize it's points that probably don't mean much to ones "who have to see proof" about God and such but the point is this is God's words that were written down in reading form so humans can learn about him and with his dealings with man.
This book has information in it that hardly none of those writers could hardly know about. Many times they had no idea what they were writing but the knew their thoughts were given to them by God and they wrote exactly what he told them. No book on this planet has survived all that this one has gone thru. Many had tried time and again to destroy it or at least keep it hidden.
Many say it contradicts itself? No it never does even once. Everything it mentions like places and people are all correct . Some have not been discovered yet but most have been that many said were not true over the years by non believers.
So if one through study of the Bible and has done research of some of the people and places the Bible spoke of and with time with dig sites have proved the bible was correct on those, then one should have faith that the other things said in the Bible are correct. Such as Mary giving birth even though she was a virgin. One has to understand without knowing how this happened, that with Jehovah, anything and I do mean anything is possible whether we understand it or not or never see some hard evidence that it truly happened.
On the other hand evolutionist make claims daily that their theory of evolution is a fact. Really? They claim this as fact with no real true proof but on the other hand with the bible there is so much proof in what the bible says that yes, can be proved. But yet ones say the Bible is not a book to be taken seriously where as evolution should be? Not hardly.....

@rajk999 said
Deuteronomy 24:16 - The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Next one:

Revelation says that the 144,000 are all Jews.
The truth is they are all Jehovah Witnesses.

The bible is not correct.

@rajk999 said
Next one:

Revelation says that the 144,000 are all Jews.
The truth is they are all Jehovah Witnesses.

The bible is not correct.

Oh my...... How old are you again? Now you're just getting silly and proving to all just how much you DON'T know.