“If there was a controlling power outside the universe, it could not show itself to us as one of the facts inside the universe -no more than the architect of a house could actually be a wall or staircase or fireplace in that house. The only way in which we could expect it to show itself would be inside us as an influence or a command trying to get us to behave in a certain way. And that's just what we do find inside us.”
@kellyjaysaid “If there was a controlling power outside the universe, it could not show itself to us as one of the facts inside the universe -no more than the architect of a house could actually be a wall or staircase or fireplace in that house. The only way in which we could expect it to show itself would be inside us as an influence or a command trying to get us to behave in a certain way. And that's just what we do find inside us.”
― C.S. Lewis, The Case for Christianity
This is arguably a "case" for ANY creator being and its "influence" on those it created. Attaching it to Christianity, specifically, doesn't count for much as a debating point.
It's one of the reasons why C.S. Lewis' work is mostly very feeble and engaged in preaching to the choir. Almost everything he says in his trite little assertions strike me as being variations of the Begging The Question logical fallacy.
The "influence or a command trying to get us to behave in a certain way", as you well know, does not HAVE to have a supernatural explanation.
@kellyjaysaid “The only way in which we could expect it to show itself would be inside us as an influence or a command trying to get us to behave in a certain way. And that's just what we do find inside us.”
As for this supposed "influence" inside of you, you recently - not for the first time - suggested that your belief in Jesus results in you being "filled" with "the Holy Spirit".
I asked what evidence there was ~ in terms of their/your demeanour and behaviour in this community ~ that these claims about this "influence" of your God figure "inside" of you are true, but you don't have the courage to discuss the things you claim/project onto others properly.
What is "inside" you, to your way of thinking, as a result of your subscription to Christian beliefs? Does it affect you in a way that anyone can perceive?
@fmfsaid The "influence or a command trying to get us to behave in a certain way", as you well know, does not HAVE to have a supernatural explanation.
Alas, KellyJay, you ignore or sidestep discussion of this and/or respond with reams of dogma spam. In fact, why people "behave in a certain way" is an extremely interesting topic. Your lack of interest in it ~ despite your tireless recitation of religious doctrine related to it ~ is peculiar.
@kellyjaysaid “If there was a controlling power outside the universe, it could not show itself to us as one of the facts inside the universe -no more than the architect of a house could actually be a wall or staircase or fireplace in that house. The only way in which we could expect it to show itself would be inside us as an influence or a command trying to get us to behave in a certain way. And that's just what we do find inside us.”
― C.S. Lewis, The Case for Christianity
And although this “ controlling influence” cannot show itself, people are expected to believe it exists and if they don’t the controlling influence which can only show itself be influencing people to do good from the inside, will burn them all alive for eternity because this ludicrous architectural analogy limits the controlling influence from doing the right thing and NOT burning people alive for eternity.
I look forward to you usual intellectual cowardice as you avoid debate with people you don’t like.
@kellyjaysaid “If there was a controlling power outside the universe, it could not show itself to us as one of the facts inside the universe -no more than the architect of a house could actually be a wall or staircase or fireplace in that house. The only way in which we could expect it to show itself would be inside us as an influence or a command trying to get us to behave in a certain way. And that's just what we do find inside us.”
― C.S. Lewis, The Case for Christianity
In real life, the architect of the house can go into the house after it's built. There are then many facts about her that are viewable from inside the house.
@bigdoggproblemsaid In real life, the architect of the house can go into the house after it's built. There are then many facts about her that are viewable from inside the house.
Much like Jesus Christ, He came into the world that was made by Him.
@bigdoggproblemsaid CS Lewis seems to have missed this counter-example...funny, since it's the main theme of Christianity.
I believe that you will see that he was referring to the house. Without an encounter with the builder/creator, you only see the work, not the builder/creator. You can read Tolkien and not find him in his writings.
@kellyjaysaid I believe that you will see that he was referring to the house. Without an encounter with the builder/creator, you only see the work, not the builder/creator. You can read Tolkien and not find him in his writings.
Oh, I see. I misread OP. My bad.
The example is still a little weird, since Christianity also wants us to listen to other apostles and prophets. Those guys aren't just "bits of the wall", are they?
I think Tolkein did well to leave religious allegory out of LOTR. Made it more of a "different" world. that being said, Tolkein was a devout Christian. It would be a mistake to judge him less sincere than Lewis because of this one artistic choice.
@kellyjaysaid I believe that you will see that he was referring to the house. Without an encounter with the builder/creator, you only see the work, not the builder/creator. You can read Tolkien and not find him in his writings.
And yet, here is the “house” declaring himself as manifestation of the “builder/creator”:
“Jesus said to him, "Have I been among you all this time and you do not know me, Philip? The one who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?”
-John 14:9
@hakimasaid And yet, here is the “house” declaring himself as manifestation of the “builder/creator”:
“Jesus said to him, "Have I been among you all this time and you do not know me, Philip? The one who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?”
-John 14:9
John 1:10-12 English Standard Version (ESV)
He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
C.S. Lewis, The Case for Christianity
11 Mar '20 09:47
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