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  1. Standard memberDeepThought
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    09 Oct '19 21:56
    @joe-shmo said
    Actually, I cant even say that it would need a large cooperation across agencies. Id imagine any one of the top secret agencies could set and trigger a domino ( the US domestic attack ), and the rest would be handled naturally among the other governing bodies unwittingly. So it doesn't need to be any cross cooperation at all. The number of 911 conspirators could actually be quite small, and loyal to the cause.
    With 9/11 if there was a conspiracy on the US side it was of the "turn a blind eye" variety. Let an attack through to justify military action in Afghanistan. I do not think that they would have allowed the actual attacks through had they realized what was going to happen.

    Having said that I think the standard explanation that information wasn't integrated between agencies is the real explanation. Even allowing for extreme malice on the part of the Bush administration, it would have been enough for them that the attack was planned, they didn't need it to go through to fruition. The only thing that gives me pause is that Donald Rumsfeld was the person who gave the "unknown knowns" explanation.
  2. Subscriberjoe shmo
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    09 Oct '19 22:57
    @DeepThought

    That type of conspiracy is still a conspiracy...no less damning.

    But before this spirals into 911 stuff, do you agree that a reasonable model of conspiratorial exposure time should account for the things I mentioned in my previous reply. What do you agree with, disagree with in that post?
  3. Zugzwang
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    09 Oct '19 23:33
    @soothfast said
    Well, India was known as the "jewel of the British Empire" once upon a time.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jewel_in_the_Crown_(novel)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jewel_in_the_Crown_(TV_series)
  4. Zugzwang
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    09 Oct '19 23:37
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_fire

    "The responsibility for the Reichstag fire remains a topic of debate and research."
  5. Standard memberDeepThought
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    10 Oct '19 00:55
    @joe-shmo said
    @DeepThought

    That type of conspiracy is still a conspiracy...no less damning.

    But before this spirals into 911 stuff, do you agree that a reasonable model of conspiratorial exposure time should account for the things I mentioned in my previous reply. What do you agree with, disagree with in that post?
    I need to read the Grimes paper to find what they took into account - I was just going by the video. Fear is all very well, but people are also driven by guilt and guilt can override fear. Scores of unaccountable deaths and suicides of minor co-conspirators would have to be explained for a large scale 9/11 conspiracy to be maintained, for the "turn a blind eye" variant they might get away with it.
  6. Standard memberbunnyknight
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    10 Oct '19 01:01
    A conspiracy theory is either true or false. Those claiming that conspiracy theories are all nonsense usually have something to hide and are probably involved in a conspiracy. As for propaganda, it's alive and well, and more evolved than ever before. And the finest type of propaganda is mixing a huge lie with a bunch of small, insignificant truths. I hear those on the news every day.
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    10 Oct '19 02:12
    @deepthought said
    India? What does that have to do with the British Empire?
    You say that and expect to be taken seriously? You do realize that it's pretty much why the British Empire was called an Empire? Think about what you're writing.
    India was a colony, not the other way around. Who was the emperor of the British empire? You said there had to be an emperor. You are making crap up again.

    Again, what are their common interests? If you cannot name one just admit you didn't know what you were talking about.
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    10 Oct '19 02:16
    @soothfast said
    Well, India was known as the "jewel of the British Empire" once upon a time.
    It was a colony, not the UK. The British empire did not have an emperor during WW2, thus proving an emperor is not required for a nation to be an empire. deepthought is full of crap.
  9. Standard memberSoothfast
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    10 Oct '19 02:27
    @metal-brain said
    It was a colony, not the UK. The British empire did not have an emperor during WW2, thus proving an emperor is not required for a nation to be an empire. deepthought is full of crap.
    Any "empire" must have a sovereign of some sort. Who is the sovereign of this hypothetical US-UK "empire" you speak of?

    Remember when I said you turn to semantic quibbling as a last resort in an argument?
    https://www.redhotpawn.com/forum/science/sea-level-rise.179816/page-31
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    10 Oct '19 03:59
    @soothfast said
    Any "empire" must have a sovereign of some sort. Who is the sovereign of this hypothetical US-UK "empire" you speak of?

    Remember when I said you turn to semantic quibbling as a last resort in an argument?
    https://www.redhotpawn.com/forum/science/sea-level-rise.179816/page-31
    No, but if I did I didn't notice it on that page. I did notice this quote from you though:

    "I am not the one dismissing every scientific study released by climatologists that does not conform to my preconceptions as being wrong or fake. To wit, I don't have to be a climatologist to read what climatologists have to say, but if you're going to say they're wrong then you need expertise in the matter. It's called peer review."

    Remember when I posted peer reviewed articles and proved you wrong? Here it is again.

    https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1029/2006GL028492

    Now it is you that cannot present a peer reviewed article to back up your gossip based belief system. You cannot even meet your own standards.
  11. Standard memberSoothfast
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    10 Oct '19 05:02
    @metal-brain said
    No, but if I did I didn't notice it on that page. I did notice this quote from you though:

    "I am not the one dismissing every scientific study released by climatologists that does not conform to my preconceptions as being wrong or fake. To wit, I don't have to be a climatologist to read what climatologists have to say, but if you're going to say they're wrong then you ...[text shortened]... eviewed article to back up your gossip based belief system. You cannot even meet your own standards.
    This is more a matter of limited time; as in, I do not have unlimited time to argue nonsense with the likes of you all day every day. That link looks familiar, though, and I think I addressed it in the debate forum a couple weeks ago.

    But now you're deflecting. Another one of your tactics is misdirection, as I also pointed out at https://www.redhotpawn.com/forum/science/sea-level-rise.179816/page-31

    This isn't one of your climate denial threads. Get back to the matter at hand: who is the sovereign of your hypothetical US-UK "empire"...? The Illuminati? Nancy Pelosi? Out with it.
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    10 Oct '19 05:572 edits
    @soothfast said
    This is more a matter of limited time; as in, I do not have unlimited time to argue nonsense with the likes of you all day every day. That link looks familiar, though, and I think I addressed it in the debate forum a couple weeks ago.

    But now you're deflecting. Another one of your tactics is misdirection, as I also pointed out at https://www.redhotpawn.com/forum ...[text shortened]... the sovereign of your hypothetical US-UK "empire"...? The Illuminati? Nancy Pelosi? Out with it.
    "That link looks familiar, though, and I think I addressed it in the debate forum a couple weeks ago."

    No, you never addressed it at all. You had nothing before and you have nothing now.

    You said you stated something on that page you didn't. Try to post something relevant next time.

    Deflecting what? Name a single thing I deflected. The only person deflecting is you. Your last post was not relevant to anything we were talking about.
  13. Standard memberSoothfast
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    10 Oct '19 17:25
    @metal-brain said
    "That link looks familiar, though, and I think I addressed it in the debate forum a couple weeks ago."

    No, you never addressed it at all. You had nothing before and you have nothing now.

    You said you stated something on that page you didn't. Try to post something relevant next time.

    Deflecting what? Name a single thing I deflected. The only person deflecting is you. Your last post was not relevant to anything we were talking about.
    This isn't one of your climate denial threads. Get back to the matter at hand: who is the sovereign of your hypothetical US-UK "empire"?


    PS: As I did a couple days ago, I will return to your "sea level" thread again someday when it pleases me. Go ahead and declare victory in the meantime, if that's what pleases you. I really don't care.
  14. Subscriberjoe shmo
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    10 Oct '19 17:342 edits
    @DeepThought

    I'm looking at the Grimes paper that was cited currently. As far as I can tell it does not account for any of the things I mentioned directly. I think what I'm talking about is relatable to the free parameter "p" the probability of an intrinsic leak or failure. From what I am understanding they use "exposed conspiracies" to empirically estimate the parameter for a certain type of conspiracy. They admit this may introduce some bias. I do not believe the presented conspiracies adequately represent potential parameters for 911 actors. Forensics fraud, spying, and medical testing, are no where near mass homicide on the scale of heinousness.

    So as far as I can tell we could have a relatively small group N(t_0) = 100 or less actors rigging explosives throughout the WTC complex for who knows how long. (Many floors were vacant, and some were intelligence offices in the first place). For which most of the initial conspirators could have been killed during the attack itself ( perhaps in the buildings, or even the many aircraft). Leaving a handful of top level intel for the initial event remaining for a leak. Those remaining from the "meta conspiracy" would be highly invested, with a very low "p" parameter, for obvious reasons. Then it is simply a one time event, with the remaining number N(t) of conspirators experiencing natural decay. It stands to reason, in that scenario it could be indefinitely kept secret.

    That is until extrinsic analysis actors "Architects and Engineers for 911 Truth" pointed to a well documented smoking gun, the WTC 7 collapse. However, the trail is growing cold, and most Americans actually would probably prefer not to know the truth of that particularly cold event if it had been a conspiracy. Even if 911 Truth gains momentum, to succeed it would have to be some World Wide Tribunal for War crimes that investigates. In short, even if they demonstrate controlled demolition, its simply to big a monster.
  15. Standard memberDeepThought
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    10 Oct '19 19:51
    @joe-shmo said
    @DeepThought

    I'm looking at the Grimes paper that was cited currently. As far as I can tell it does not account for any of the things I mentioned directly. I think what I'm talking about is relatable to the free parameter "p" the probability of an intrinsic leak or failure. From what I am understanding they use "exposed conspiracies" to empirically estimate the paramet ...[text shortened]... nvestigates. In short, even if they demonstrate controlled demolition, its simply to big a monster.
    For which most of the initial conspirators could have been killed during the attack itself ( perhaps in the buildings, or even the many aircraft).
    When you say "initial conspirators" I assume you are talking about US citizens rather than the Islamic extremists who actually carried out the attack. Are you saying they were betrayed, that the top level people saw them as expendable?

    You do realize the puffs of smoke are explained by the dynamics of the building collapse.
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